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Speccing and you -- A post for ALL melee classes (but mostly you, Mr SB)
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wyrd77
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Date Posted:
11/16/04 11:21am
Subject:
RE: Speccing and you -- A post for ALL melee classes (but mostly you, Mr SB)
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Ulf_Fang,
"Would this be a vaible spec for a RR4 SB or should I lower CS and bring LA up more?"
From running preliminary numbers, Id say that ~44 CS is the sweet spot. Over that it starts getting very expensive per spec point and the gains/cost of LA seems to be higher.
Id toy around with my DPS Calculator in my sig to find your best damage output spec
Aakar,
Thanks!
W
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Atomic54
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Date Posted:
11/16/04 11:38am
Subject:
RE: Speccing and you -- A post for ALL melee classes (but mostly you, Mr SB)
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wyrd's conclusions do seem to be logical however, the only ground breaking issue in this thread concerns the effects of weaponskill. it makes sense that if you dont use sword styles as an sb theres no reason to go above 51 composite spec if what he says about weaponskill is true. basically all sb's want to do the most amount of damage in the smallest amount of time, that is entirely dependent on a styles growth rate. if CS styles in general have the highest growth rates it certainly makes them worth specing for. it all boils down to what styles an sb will use most often and then adjust spec accordingly.
alot of people seem bothered by the fact these tests were not done on a SB, every second that daoc is being played there are thousands upon thousands of calculations being made each second. to keep everything balanced mythic must use certain laws across the board for all melee damage to be calculated. a standard must be set. it would be reassuring for these tests to be done on a sb but not all that neccessary.
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Atomical 50th Dragon Knight Theurgist
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Elaniea
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Date Posted:
11/16/04 11:40am
Subject:
RE: Speccing and you -- A post for ALL melee classes (but mostly you, Mr SB)
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hmm, this makes so much more sense now, i was wondering for the longest time why my fellow sb's whine when i was crushin with my 44 CS spec :P but, ill have to cut my sword down from 42 to bump env. I did some quick tests (only about 300 swings) to confirm some suspicions, and i applaud you on your findings, they are dead on to what i have seen.
As for drexxen: you just don't get it. the ws "boost" from >51 sword spec wont do anything for you, DEBUFFED OR NOT. it doesnt change. You cant "compensate" for the loss. Only way to compensate... purge.
Once again, excellent work, way to fight off the flames, and thanks a bunch for all your hard work Wyrd.
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Elaniea 1.0, <sold> 51 Scout, Albion/Percival Gutsman, 50 Shadowblade, Midgard/Pellinor other random PvE 50's/bots Tapestick, 50 armsman Mordred <active>
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Qisa
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Date Posted:
11/16/04 11:48am
Subject:
RE: Speccing and you -- A post for ALL melee classes (but mostly you, Mr SB)
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Very fascinating thread. Great discussion and an excellent summary by Losco IMO. SBs have got to be the most complicated class to spec and suit up in the game!
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Qisa (Blood Elf Huntress - Level 70 - Lightbringer)
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Guthric_Gaidin
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Date Posted:
11/16/04 11:55am
Subject:
RE: Speccing and you -- A post for ALL melee classes (but mostly you, Mr SB)
- Date Edited:
11/16/04 11:57am (2 edits total)
Edited By:
Guthric_Gaidin
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Here's a test we should do to test which component(s) of weaponskill affect enemy defenses: STR or Weapon spec, or both. (I think I'll try it tonight if I find another willing assassin on Pend):
Duel another assassin, who doesn't draw his weapons... only evades. Or, duel a shield-wielder who only blocks. You don't need to use any styles, just swing continuously. Have a healer on hand to keep the evading/blocking enemy alive. Let this test go for quite a long time, say 200-300 swings.
TEST #1 - Hi Weapon/STR
1) Spec 50 sword
2) STR completely buffed
TEST #2 - Low Weapon/Hi STR
1) Spec a level of sword that gives you a 51 composite, all other speclines remaining equal.
2) STR completely buffed
TEST #3 - Hi Weapon/Low STR
1) Spec 50 sword
2) No STR buffs, but other buffs remain the same.
TEST #4 - Low Weapon/STR
1) Spec a level of sword that gives you a 51 composite, all other speclines remaining equal.
2) No STR buffs, but other buffs remain the same.
Compare the tests. If what Wyrd says is true, the enemy in tests 1 and 2 should have equivalent evade/block percents, and tests 3 and 4 should also be equivalent. If the old standard view is correct, then 1 would stand above all other tests, 2 and 3 might be comparable, and 4 would be the clear loser.
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Doc_McAlister
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Date Posted:
11/16/04 12:04pm
Subject:
RE: Speccing and you -- A post for ALL melee classes (but mostly you, Mr SB)
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For the people focusing primarily on the weaponskill box in your char sheet:
Weaponskill is a **composite** statistic. It is not a thing on its own. It is a value created by plugging other values into a function.
So, Weaponskill = X + Y + Z + A
X is a value based on your mainhand weapon spec.
Y is a value based on your weapon stat (dex, str, etc).
Z is a value based on your + to spec (my testing indicates that one point of +weapon from RR and items has roughly the same effect on weaponskill as raising the base spec twice.)
A is a catch all for anything we don't know about yet.
Now, we know that things like evade and block and parry are all based on stats. There is some argument as to exactly which stat each is based on, but we do know that increasing dex and quick makes these things happen more often.
WHAT IF chance to penetrate those defenses is ALSO based on stats. Supposing shields are 100% dex based (I don't know that they are, just assuming for the purpose of example). So you take a scout with 42 shield spec + 15 for 57 shield spec. Base chance to block is 33.5% (5% base + half spec). Now we modify that for actual chance to block. What if the modifier is not simply their dex, but is determined by their dex MINUS their opponents weaponstat. So if their dex is higher it is adjusted upwards and if the opponents weaponstat is higher then it is adjusted downwards from base.
This would result in the tests we have all seen. Increase the blockers dex and he blocks more. Increase the attacker's weaponstat and the defender blocks less.
This would mean that increasing your weaponSTAT has two effects ... it makes your ability to penetrate defenses better and increases the weaponskill value on the character page.
***************
However, if this is the case then weaponskill has NOTHING to do with the ability to get past defenses. It is a red herring. If you increase it by some method other than buffing the weaponstat you don't see a corresponding increase in defense penetration because that is not based on weaponskill, only weaponstat.
*****************
Which is exactly the result wyrd came up with. When he holds weaponstat constant and varies spec he is seeing no change in defense penetration despite the fact that the weaponskill value in his character sheet is changing.
The belief that weaponskill dictates defense penetration may very well be a myth generated from the fact that testers were looking for a relation between the two, and the easiest way to tweak weaponskill values is by monkeying with your weaponstat through buffs and items.
I don't know of any other test that has looked at defense penetration while holding weaponstat constant and only changing weaponskill. Unless someone can demonstrate that weaponskill changes influence defense penetration **even while weaponstats and defense stats are held constant**, then I think we can consider this myth busted.
This would, in turn, mean that if you are speccing axe high to get a better chance of hitting when enervated you ae wasting spec points because your *spec* has nothing to do with that .. as Wyrd has discovered through testing.
Good work Wyrd.
-Doc
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syrriowonder
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Date Posted:
11/16/04 12:30pm
Subject:
RE: Speccing and you -- A post for ALL melee classes (but mostly you, Mr SB)
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is the significant difference between taking LA to 29 or 30 and taking it to 39 only the evade stun?
those seem to be the two popular values to take la to with a high cs spec and i was just curious because id definitely forfeit my evade stun for more venom and higher anytime CS damage..
also wondering if the defense penalty garrote has is really noticeable? or has been tested as to what its actually affecting.
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Falske
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Date Posted:
11/16/04 12:33pm
Subject:
RE: Speccing and you -- A post for ALL melee classes (but mostly you, Mr SB)
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My spec spec RR4 kobold SB
44sw 44LA 35stealth 30venom 18cs
I used to be 5-spec but this spec is working better for me, CS may do better dmg than the LA styles.. but most CS
also gives penalty to defense wich means you get hit more.. while double frost is a very nice anytime style with no defense penalty.
when attacking i try to open with backstab2-snowsquall-icebrilliance very nice dmg.
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BrotherJonn
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Date Posted:
11/16/04 12:35pm
Subject:
RE: Speccing and you -- A post for ALL melee classes (but mostly you, Mr SB)
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This also helps to explain why melee archers can do better. With no styles, a bow will only hit for base damage, and will not do much better in a 50+11 spec vs a 40+11 spec. That leaves a lot of spec points to drop on spear instead of bow for hunters.
Gives me something to really think about. Maybe I will have to lead a Dragon raid as well.
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Losco_PCoaltrain
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Date Posted:
11/16/04 1:12pm
Subject:
RE: Speccing and you -- A post for ALL melee classes (but mostly you, Mr SB)
- Date Edited:
11/16/04 1:15pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Losco_PCoaltrain
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"but most CS also gives penalty to defense wich means you get hit more"
-Everything I've seen shows that offensive and defensive bonuses/penalties have no affect at all on PvP combat.
Besides, according to what Wyrd is saying, if you want to use LA styles instead of CS styles that's ok, you should just then drop sword down to get 44-50 LA. The only spec that appears to be wasted beyond 51 modified spec for SBs is sword/axe, according to Wyrd's data. There is still a real benefit to speccing LA high, and there is definitely a real benefit to speccing CS high as well, but there seems to be no benefit at all for an SB to spec sword/axe beyond 51 modified unless they only plan to use sword/axe styles.
What this means for people who are considering a low left axe/high CS spec is that you will see a decrease in base damage due to the left axe penalty at the lower LA spec that may or may not be offset by the increase in CS style damage. This also means that there should be a "sweet spot" of both LA and CS spec where if you have XX pts in LA and XX pts in CS that you would have the best possible combination of both base damage and CS style damage. It would also mean that a 50 LA/50 CS spec would run circles around a 50 sword/axe/50 LA spec in terms of both base and styled dps.
I have much pendragon testing to do!
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sand-
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Date Posted:
11/16/04 1:23pm
Subject:
RE: Speccing and you -- A post for ALL melee classes (but mostly you, Mr SB)
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This was really some nice testing if its true. That would mean that a kickass SZ (PerfZerk) spec at RR7 for me would be, thinking I would primarly use LA styles cause I like playing with CB,DF,FG:
34+17a
50+17la
33+17ste
33+17env
22cs(rest of points which will give me a bubble popper from both front and back of casters).
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ElkHorn_
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Date Posted:
11/16/04 1:29pm
Subject:
RE: Speccing and you -- A post for ALL melee classes (but mostly you, Mr SB)
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All I can say is boy, you guys sure have a short memory.
Tyrd is the person who almost single-handedly nerfed Midgard into oblivion with the LA growth rates charts - never mind that he was not a Midgard player, and had plenty to gain by nerfing LA.
Now he wants to make nice and pretend that he is providing accurate "data". Now, according to him, Infiltrators and SBs are balanced as well as hunters and Scouts and etc.
Anyone who has played a SB probably has the instinct to know, after 5 minutes in RvR, that that is not the case.
If you want to listen to this enemy of Midgard, be my guest. Those of us who have been loyal to Midgard will view him only as another interloper with nothing but evil intentions. I'm certainly not going to listen to him tell me how to spec my characters - although the idea is compelling - I would like to post over on the Alb boards the Guaranteed Accurate Data that shows how Infs should spec their characters - bwa ha ha ha ha !
Best Regards,
e
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Bjorvald
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Date Posted:
11/16/04 1:32pm
Subject:
RE: Speccing and you -- A post for ALL melee classes (but mostly you, Mr SB)
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Oh please.. get over it, LA was bugged and needed an adjustment. What failed to happen after that was addressing the myriad of other SB shortcomings that the LA bug papered over.
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Blinknone, various toons on classic
GANKED AGAIN
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GP35
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Date Posted:
11/16/04 2:11pm
Subject:
RE: Speccing and you -- A post for ALL melee classes (but mostly you, Mr SB)
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Elk, FYI, I confirmed his conclusion independently last night without even seeing this post.
I am a melee ranger who will be respecing in the next week.
My only concern is that this will dry up the market for full respec stones on my server. Thank goodness there is Dragon Raid scheduled for Sat on my server.
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Kilkenny of Igraine Celt Blades Ranger - RR9L4 Captain of The Black Company See http://navareen.youaremighty.com/ My Movies at http://www.kilkenny.lunarpages.com
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vn_bezerker
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Date Posted:
11/16/04 2:33pm
Subject:
RE: Speccing and you -- A post for ALL melee classes (but mostly you, Mr SB)
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Couple points to add.
1) target used for test. The dummies are not good real word test subjects.How does caps come into this?
2) I am fairly sure mythic has stated the to hit is dependant on your ws vs enemy AF.
3) WS is a direct correlator to base dmg. Style growth rates are applied to the base dmg, the greater your base dmg the more you get out of a style.
4) wyrd is simply suggesting that contrary to what everyone beleived having more than 51 to a skill does ABSOLUTELY ZERO toy uor melee dmg beyond the style growth rate bonus ( 2hd bonus being the exception).
IE the only way to increase your WS beyond the point when you reach 51 comp spec is by increasing your str bonus as an SB.
5) Unless mythic ninja fixed it wyrd is 100% wrong when he stated the offhand dmg is not affected by LA spec. I ran a test for it and checked it somewhere after the 1.62 nerf. The results were clear and ti was the first time we discovered that alow LA spec resulted in low offhand dmg. Now based on his testing though as long as your LA spec is 51 comp you will not see this ( this is not the LA penalty this is the actual dmg of the offhand weapon ). My tests were like 1 LA vs 50 using identical weapons in each hand, both hands should do same dmg but the MH had a HUGe advantage over the offhand.
If wyrds tests are correct regarding the idea that you gain nothing with composite attributes beyond 51, what a major change in the game and how could it possibly have gone this long unknown and infact totaly miss read being we all thought it was extremely important.
It leads me to beleive mythics game is truly more broken than ever, or that they are genius as i have always felt the spec point limitations where silly in this game, but if you only need 51 comp suddenly spec poitns seem more abound in "some cases" the key being 51 comp is fine in any melee spec line you will NOT perfoprm styles from.
So then I will offer this, the best offensive spec for a RR11 zerk would be 50LA/31hammer/31sword/rest parry, grant you 2 dmg types and as long as you use LA styles you will get the same exact dmg to a clothe wearer. which would be the MAX possible dmg to said cloth wearer.
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