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Official Thread: Rapid Fire
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vn_Briarsprout
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Oct '01
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Date Posted:
6/5/03 8:02am
Subject:
RE: Official Thread: Rapid Fire
- Date Edited:
6/5/03 8:03am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
vn_Briarsprout
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Shriknah
That is fair aye. I think Mythic is doing this.
But, in turn, casters/ support need to be fun in this game or why play them?
These are some considerations from the other side of the fence. But I agree a few weeks testing is a good idea to see how it plays out in RVR.
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Shriknah
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Date Posted:
6/5/03 8:04am
Subject:
RE: Official Thread: Rapid Fire
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"Casters/ support can't reach the 1.5 casting times for their "turn" to occur. "
Casters have quickcast, which can allow them to take the initiative back. Support characters do not, but TBH support characters can't do anything about an archer interrupting them with standard shots anyway. The way interrupt code works, normal shots are going to consta-interrupt normal spell times anyway, so that difference is moot. Hell, even my baby cleric in BG0 can't do jack with one archer on him, and this is vs. no RF, no RA, no red buff having n00b archers. RF is not going to make it any worse than it already is for these types.
Unless of course RF is increasing DPS, in which case they will die faster. But like I said, that would be an unacceptable bug, and would require a quick fix.
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Kesxex
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Date Posted:
6/5/03 8:06am
Subject:
RE: Official Thread: Rapid Fire
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Rapid Fire is fine. What will nerf all archers again is the awesome combo of PA + RF or PA + CS.
Neglecting the BT by an automatic ability (as archers skill up bow) instead of using tactics is what will give you archers a short time of superiority, then it will be time of oblivion again.
Mythic contradicts itself: For once they give casters a personal bt to give them a reaction time against hidden attacks, then they give the hidden attacker the chance to bypass the bt - wonder why caster cry havoc and nerf? (Any answer by anyone qualifies the poster straight as non-intelligent life form  )
Petition to take PA away - from the archer community. Don't rest on your advantage till you as classes get nerfed again. Trade it against styled bow attacks to address your miss rates. What good is PA if you don't even hit? And if you hit more than what good use is PA?
Imo RF is not the problem, PA is and it's time archers do something about it. RF can be used wisely in tactics switching RF, CS and normal shots to overcome a resistance - be it as solo or in a group.
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Shriknah
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Date Posted:
6/5/03 8:07am
Subject:
RE: Official Thread: Rapid Fire
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Heh our posting is getting out of sync here =p
Yes, I totally agree that support characters need to be fun. But archers do also, and they haven't been for a long time.
Besides which, TBH, support types have a myriad of problems going for them right now which need to be addressed but are out of the scope of this thread.
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tyrfiel
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Date Posted:
6/5/03 8:10am
Subject:
RE: Official Thread: Rapid Fire
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"if you fire 6 shots and miss 1, would mean less than if you fire 3 shots and miss 1. understand?"
I understand what you're saying, but you're forgetting something: if it's likely that you fire 3 shots and miss 1, it's JUST AS LIKELY that you'll fire 6 shots and miss 2.
Try this: roll a six-sided die 100 times and count how many ones you get. Now roll a 12-sided die 100 times and write down how many ones AND twos you get. It'll be about the same. RF vs. normal fire is the same kind of thing.
On average, damage you don't score due to misses/evades/blocks/fumbles will be the same, no matter what type of shot you're firing.
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Formerly: DAOC (Lamorak, Merlin, Gareth), WoW (Paladin - Turalyon) Currently: Progressquest (Level 47 Demicanadian Battle-Felon) The Looking-Glass DAOC UI: http://camelotvault.ign.com/View.php?view=UI.Detail&id=25
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zerole
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Date Posted:
6/5/03 8:10am
Subject:
RE: Official Thread: Rapid Fire
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Kesex, PA requires 50 bow spec to be of any good use. Which gimps our melee output. We pay the price for PAIII. You only have to spec to 26 for 10s PBT.
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Meddyck
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Date Posted:
6/5/03 8:11am
Subject:
RE: Official Thread: Rapid Fire
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Let's just drop this ability before it results in archers getting their damage and accuracy nerfed again. Replace it with a Quickshot ability, an uninterruptible shot on a 20 second timer. Then fix the remaining issues with archers:
- No to hit bonus. Do "improved accuracy" arrows even do anything?
- No stealth sub-skills. Now that minstrels have them, archers need them too. Tracking please.
- Camoflouge timer is too long.
- Longshot and volley are still overpriced and really should be abilities in the bow specline.
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sideshowbob5000
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Date Posted:
6/5/03 8:12am
Subject:
RE: Official Thread: Rapid Fire
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personally I'm totally fine with the archer changes.
If they spec to get these abilities, then they gimp thier ability to melee. In the end it all works out.
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vn_Briarsprout
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Date Posted:
6/5/03 8:14am
Subject:
RE: Official Thread: Rapid Fire
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Casters have quickcast, which can allow them to take the initiative back.
Quickcast is on a timer and has an increased power costs. It comes in with built in limitations.
PA+RF were not well thought out changes to be honest. Many of us early on protested this and its a dramatic change from the game dynamics.
In particular, PA was a senceless change...to appease the solo archer while nerfing other lines dramatically. Archers need to be held to the same standards as the rest of the classes with styles and facing defenses like BT. But given that won't happen, most likely, RF may need to be addressed.
But I agree give it a few weeks and see etc.
I sort of suspect it will need to be toned down, because archers can fire before the other person can react.
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vn_Briarsprout
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Date Posted:
6/5/03 8:18am
Subject:
RE: Official Thread: Rapid Fire
- Date Edited:
6/5/03 8:20am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
vn_Briarsprout
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"Kesex, PA requires 50 bow spec to be of any good use. Which gimps our melee output. We pay the price for PAIII. You only have to spec to 26 for 10s PBT."
Wardens spec level 45 to get BT at 6 seconds. This is a new precedence in the game whereby this ability is totally being negated with a bow spec of fifty. This is not fair and should not have entered the live game period, especially, since BT was not over powering and could be over come.
BT played the function, a little, at keeping casters alive and support. It slowed down the speed of battles like healing does. In other words, it played an important function.
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Shriknah
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Date Posted:
6/5/03 8:19am
Subject:
RE: Official Thread: Rapid Fire
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"Neglecting the BT by an automatic ability (as archers skill up bow) instead of using tactics is what will give you archers a short time of superiority, then it will be time of oblivion again."
I can agree with this. PA is far more worse, IMO, than RF. With both in the game, a couple things make PA less than attractive:
1) PA negates another line of abilites, namely PBT. This is a fine point for archers as we all know how angry SH made them for negating thier stealth.
2) With RF in the game, the necessity of PA is very much diminshed. RF allows more shots inbetween pulses, allows a faster break of the bubble, ect.
RF, IMO, is a necessary addition. It allows archers to do many things they need to be able to do, such as take and hold initiative, actually do damage in large group situations where the slow draw time simply takes too long to be a major contributor, and have a way to break that personal bubble a little bit faster so that it doesn't hurt so bad. But the major plus is that it is a nerf-free ability; By that I mean it isn't a direct nerf to any other ability in game already, like PA is.
Of course, a PA discussion is outside of the scope of this thread also, only reason I go off topic here is because I wanted to make clear my feeling that RF is a much better addition to the game than PA, so if one has to go, the devs know my feelings on the matter, since we all know that my opinion rules what they do.
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zerole
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Date Posted:
6/5/03 8:23am
Subject:
RE: Official Thread: Rapid Fire
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BT is still good if you are a zergling. Melee classes can't penetrate BT except stealthers. Every realm has an archer class, maybe you should make some friends. 6s PBT renders an archer completely useless. It makes archers not fun to play. With PA we can now choose to spec to use our primary weapon and get rewarded for it. Previously, most scouts have spec'd for melee, with IP/Dodge/Aug Quick low MOA and low FE because using out bow is pointless. We were better off using TS to unconver assasins then meleeing them down with IP/melee RA's. Now there is a point to use the bow, and you scream nerf. If you don't like your 6s PBT anymore use your respec and maybe get a 10s PBT and spend those points into something else. PBT is still useful, its not the instant win against archers anymore...
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vn_Briarsprout
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Date Posted:
6/5/03 8:23am
Subject:
RE: Official Thread: Rapid Fire
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Aye,
But I think PA+RF entered the game purposely to cripple BT. Mythic believed the PR in other words that many solo archers gave out that BT was their nemesis. What they forgot to add was that it was a nemesis to the solo archer....in a group game.
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Vladimir_Impala
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Date Posted:
6/5/03 8:23am
Subject:
RE: Official Thread: Rapid Fire
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I've come to realize that, as usual, players aren't making a distinction between the different archer classes (Hunter, Rangers, and Scouts) and are simply refering to all as Archers.
Hunters are Rapid Firing shots for damages between 100-200 while Scouts and Rangers are able to Rapid Fire shots at the same speeds as Hunters yet hit for 200-300 damage. In essence, Rangers and Scouts are able to do the same damage with Rapid Fire shots as Hunters do with Normal Shots.
As you continue to complain and cry nerf for archers, do us Hunters a favor and make a distinction. Hunters aren't the ones mowing people down like everyone is complaining here.
Hunters, as usual, are fairly balanced but because of the archery performance that Rangers and Scouts can attain, Hunters are once again being blamed equally for any problems occurring despite not being the ones causing the problems.
Hunters are not the same as Rangers and Scouts. Stop pretending we are.
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animalbard
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Date Posted:
6/5/03 8:27am
Subject:
RE: Official Thread: Rapid Fire
- Date Edited:
6/5/03 8:27am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
animalbard
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"Try this: roll a six-sided die 100 times and..."
Actually this is exactly what struck me when i saw the one test that was posted - the sample size is way way too small. Especially with that percentage of misses and a 75% damage variance.
JUST GRABBED A HANDFULL OF CHANGE FROM GF'S PURSE - 49 COINS
28 tales
21 heads
we all know there's a 50/50 chance of a coin comin up heads or tails ... yet after a sample of 49 we've got a 43/57 result.
For mythic devs to accept a parsed log you need a few hundred samples with the best controls you can set up.
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