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Official Thread: Rapid Fire
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Wizdom6
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Date Posted:
6/5/03 7:32am
Subject:
RE: Official Thread: Rapid Fire
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Brairsprout
What part of "Cry more n00b and learn tactics and THAT IS ALL" did you not understand?
Run along little one.
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tyrfiel
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Date Posted:
6/5/03 7:34am
Subject:
RE: Official Thread: Rapid Fire
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"misses/evades dont mean so much"
Danish, you are guilty of bad math. When it comes to computing DPS, misses and evades affect RF and normal shots equally. The percent chance of a miss or an evade is the same, no matter what type of shot you're firing (RF/normal). If I fire 100 normal shots and 30 miss/are evaded, then when I fire 200 RF shots, about 60 will miss/be evaded. It's a wash when computing DPS.
"Rapid fire: 150-200 + more crits"
I'm skeptical about this "more crits" thing. As far as I know, a critical hit isn't some flat amount of damage. That is, when I get a critical hit with my short recurve the damage is proportionally less than if I got a critical hit with my heavy recurve. So, like the miss/evade thing, it doesn't matter how many shots I score a crit hit on; if it's proportional, it's a wash.
"so naturally RF does better damage statistically."
I think you need to study your statistics.
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Formerly: DAOC (Lamorak, Merlin, Gareth), WoW (Paladin - Turalyon) Currently: Progressquest (Level 47 Demicanadian Battle-Felon) The Looking-Glass DAOC UI: http://camelotvault.ign.com/View.php?view=UI.Detail&id=25
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vn_Briarsprout
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Date Posted:
6/5/03 7:39am
Subject:
RE: Official Thread: Rapid Fire
- Date Edited:
6/5/03 7:39am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
vn_Briarsprout
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Wizdom6
Why were archers not using tactics with BT which could be over come. Oh I forgot, it interfered with archer soloing.....in a group game?
Can you guys say some thing a little more original then "cry noob" or flame since many of the posters here I recognize from the beginning of the game and many have played other MMOGS.
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Danish_bacon
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Date Posted:
6/5/03 7:39am
Subject:
RE: Official Thread: Rapid Fire
- Date Edited:
6/5/03 7:45am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Danish_bacon
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"misses/evades dont mean so much"
if you fire 6 shots and miss 1, would mean less than if you fire 3 shots and miss 1. understand?
"I'm skeptical about this "more crits" thing."
fire 5 shots or fire 10 shots. you think you have same change to get crit in each event?
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Wizdom6
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Date Posted:
6/5/03 7:39am
Subject:
RE: Official Thread: Rapid Fire
- Date Edited:
6/5/03 7:45am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Wizdom6
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Loki
Beta EQ, AO, DAoC, AC2, Planetside
Played UO, EQ, AC, AO, DAoC, SB
Currently Playing DAoC (Hoping for Horizons Beta)
Will never go near AC2 again
Jack of all trades master of none.
I've been with Daoc since Beta (with a 6 month break courtesy of see hidden)and played nearly every alb class and a few Hib and Mid ones to boot.
I think I'm qualified to comment on this. If you think you should beat archers when they get the first shot on you - you should cancel now and wait for horizons - just dont expect the horizons devs to listen to your whines.
Edit Briarsprout - Quite seriously for a moment - Have you ever played an archer? Grouping? What is that? Most archers would love to group mate - now they might actually get a chance. That comment shows just how little you know about the class - It even leads me to suspect that you have not been around as long as you would like us to beleive because "Why cant we get groups" has been the bitter lament of archers from final week of beta.
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Shriknah
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Apr '03
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Date Posted:
6/5/03 7:42am
Subject:
RE: Official Thread: Rapid Fire
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Danish,
What you are seeing isn't an increase in damage, it is a lowering of variance over like time frames.
For instance, fire 6 shots and miss 2, fire 3 shots and miss none. The 3 shots are gonna do better. When shooting less frequently, the variance will simply go up, but it should not alter the average damage at all.
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Cry more, IBTL, use tactics, ect...
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vn_Briarsprout
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Date Posted:
6/5/03 7:42am
Subject:
RE: Official Thread: Rapid Fire
- Date Edited:
6/5/03 7:48am (2 edits total)
Edited By:
vn_Briarsprout
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So does everyone else. Stop the noob thing you know what you are doing. Everyone else also knows this game well and their classes well.
___
But I'll repeat this game is about 39 classes not just archers. We are here to have fun etc. PA+RF went overboard, probably. Many archers do admit this and even the scout TL admitted this.
Support and casters need to have fun in this game, otherwise, they will have little insensitive to RVR or play this game for that matter.
To fix archers, what Mythic should have done is fix their miss rates via styled attacks, reduced endurance costs, salvage arrows etc.
But that was thoughtful, meaningful change....this is a quick fix/ bandaid and you still have your miss rates. Meanwhile PBT lines were nerfed to heck to appease the archer community and now those lines are not desirable.
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loki_d20
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Title: Community > *
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Date Posted:
6/5/03 7:45am
Subject:
RE: Official Thread: Rapid Fire
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<<Jack of all trades master of none.
I've been with Daoc since Beta (with a 6 month break courtesy of see hidden)and played nearly every alb class and a few Hib and Mid ones to boot.
I think I'm qualified to comment on this. If you think you should beat archers when they get the first shot on you - you should cancel now and wait for horizons - just dont expect the horizons devs to listen to your whines.>>
LOL. If you actually read the signature you'll see I also was in DAoC Beta.
I'm sure to be awed by your noob post name and all, but where did you catch that I said ANYTHING about casters wanting to be able to kill archers?
My whole point is that all these changes to boost classes without thinking about the survivability of casters is making it harder and harder for casters in RvR.
Reading + comprehension, please.
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Danish_bacon
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Date Posted:
6/5/03 7:48am
Subject:
RE: Official Thread: Rapid Fire
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"fire 6 shots and miss 2, fire 3 shots and miss none. The 3 shots are gonna do better. When shooting less frequently, the variance will simply go up, but it should not alter the average damage at all."
the variance in slow shots is greater than fast shots. so naturally faster shots will have better average damage!
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Znail-2
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Apr '03
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Date Posted:
6/5/03 7:50am
Subject:
RE: Official Thread: Rapid Fire
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Quote by Shrikna:
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Just for the heck of it, I just flipped a quarter 32 times. 21 tails, 11 heads. 65% Tails. 15% off the statistical average. In other words, a test with that sample size means jack all.
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Binary tests (like coin flips) require a larger sample size, so your example means jack all.
Quote by Tyrfiel:
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In those calculations, they consider misses to be the damage mean (the midpoint between the max and the min damage). This skews the results.
For example: 100, 50, 75, miss, miss, 100. If you count misses as zero damage, the average is 54.2. If you count misses as the mean (1/2 way between 50 and 100 = 75), the average is 66.7.
You can prove anything you like if you use bad math.
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Yes, alot can be proven with bad math. Misses are a binary occurence and are avoided if you want to do any kind of decent test of average numbers.
If you can manage to show that there is a larger chance of missing while using RF then it has to be taken into acount at some time, else it does not.
So the average damage of a hit would be:
(100+50+75+100)/4=81.25
If this is later used to calculate average damage then it should be reduced due to miss rate. But so far so is there no tests done that can show if the miss rate is higher for RF then for normal shots. So for comparison with normal shooting so are miss rate not needed as both can be asumed to miss equaly often.
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Shriknah
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Date Posted:
6/5/03 7:52am
Subject:
RE: Official Thread: Rapid Fire
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Briar, to be perfectly honest, can you really say that its overpowered after a such a short amount of time live? Ignoring the possibility that RF adds DPS (cause no one knows if it does, but I think we all agree that it shouldn't), no one has really had time to adjust thier tactics to these new abilites. Of course they are going to look overpowered now. People are doing what they always did against archers, but archers aren't the same ignorable beast that they were anymore.
Give people a chance to adjust thier tactics to this, I am pretty sure that once the dust settles you will find that archers are pretty much in line. However that is just my prediction, and is certainly not a fact. Everyone in this thread wants to claim facts, but the number 1 thing to remember is that you don't have any. Simply put, not enough time has passed for anyone to know anything about how this will work out yet.
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Cry more, IBTL, use tactics, ect...
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zerole
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Date Posted:
6/5/03 7:55am
Subject:
RE: Official Thread: Rapid Fire
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The reason why rapid fire may seem higher DPS to you is because of realm abilities some scouts have. If you are spec'd to use a bow you will be doing slighly more damage with RF than someone else will. Falcon's Eye will make you crit more. Your crits are not halved on a RF shot. So if you use RF I suggest high FE. Also if you use a 5.5 speed bow and have 50 natural bow, and you are RR6 or above, you will be doing slightly more damage. I believe RF is working as intended. With MOA3 and a 5.5 speed bow I RF at aprox. 1.6 seconds. My damage is halved, but because of my natural 50 bow, and my high RR my damage gets capped on a regular shot. I could infact be able to do more damage if it werent for the hard cap. RF halves what damage you could have done, not what your cap is. RF+MoA+FE is why archers think they are doing more damage, and can take down other classes quicker than they used to be able to. If you pump 10 arrows into a warrior in 15 seconds you will probobly crit a good amount of those shots. If you pump 5 arrows in 15 seconds into a warrior, well you have half the chance of critting. Add in moa and you would be getting more than 10 arrows in. Stop complaining about it. Its not bugged, I believe this is by design. Mythic gave us a new skill, the archers who are spec'd correctly may notice they are powerful now and can take down a target much quicker. Its because of your RA's and spec.
Working as intended, infact if Mythic changes archers and nerfs them again, I am cancelling all 4 of accounts and going to play a game with less politics, like tic tac toe.
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Shriknah
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Date Posted:
6/5/03 7:56am
Subject:
RE: Official Thread: Rapid Fire
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"Binary tests (like coin flips) require a larger sample size,"
True.
"so your example means jack all."
False.
My example was used to illuminate the uselessness of small sample tests. Binary or not, 18 trial baseline and 32 trial contrast line = too small, period. You'd have to be totally ignorant of statistics and probabilites to argue with that.
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Cry more, IBTL, use tactics, ect...
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vn_Briarsprout
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Date Posted:
6/5/03 7:57am
Subject:
RE: Official Thread: Rapid Fire
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The damage point is moot to some degree. What rapid fire does is keep the caster from casting and the support person from healing. Thus, quickening the pace of RVR and/or stopping the casters from providing offense.
One could argue also that rapid fire bypasses the normal dps delays of all weapons melees are handicapped to. This may give archers an unfair advantage and they are hitting 200 to boot with rapid fire.
If things were ideal, archers should have gotten styles. But since that is not going to happen, the rapid fire delays should be increased to permit the other player a roll/"turn" as in the D&D sense of the word. Casters/ support can't reach the 1.5 casting times for their "turn" to occur.
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animalbard
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Date Posted:
6/5/03 7:58am
Subject:
RE: Official Thread: Rapid Fire
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"Before RF if you get TSed you could of run away. Now though if you get TSed you are dead 100%..."
WHY?
Is the damage over time THAT much more?
Have you run some descent tests?
I haven't seen a valid test performed yet. It doesn't take a math degree to figure out that the sample pools were too small and the use of an average for misses was totally inapropriate (when the standard deviation is that large).
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