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What exactly does AF do? How does it relate to ABS?
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draekonis
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Date Posted:
7/31/04 9:46am
Subject:
RE: What exactly does AF do? How does it relate to ABS?
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parry and shield are both modified by dex, while evade is 50% qui/dex(although stealthers use to be able to cap it with only qui).
Some time ago i heard that VWs had a defense about equal to reinforced, which gave me the idea that the abs buff was applied as an invisible af modifier.
eg. (250 base x 1.33abs) + 250 caster af buff=582.5 AF, which is very close to reinforced/studded.
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Fenomen
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Date Posted:
8/9/04 5:59pm
Subject:
RE: What exactly does AF do? How does it relate to ABS?
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Shouldnt AF increase Opponents Chance to miss as well`?
I allways felt it was like that, but i never done any testing.
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Aavor
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Date Posted:
8/11/04 11:06am
Subject:
RE: What exactly does AF do? How does it relate to ABS?
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Thanks Karisuta for the explanation.
I am still unclear on one aspect though. My understanding had been that overall AF is not actually the number that is used in the damage calculation when you are hit. The AF of the particular peice being hit is the relevant AF number. Is this not true?
If it is not true, then my pending question is answered. If it is true, it raises issues of how ToA +AF bonuses are applied, etc.
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Taradamin
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Date Posted:
8/14/04 6:06am
Subject:
RE: What exactly does AF do? How does it relate to ABS?
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/tag
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Drusain_Lamorak
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Date Posted:
8/14/04 8:04am
Subject:
RE: What exactly does AF do? How does it relate to ABS?
- Date Edited:
8/14/04 8:17am (2 edits total)
Edited By:
Drusain_Lamorak
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Whenever you are hit in melee, the attacker's weapskill and damage table are put into a formula along with the target's AF. Once that damage is calculated, it becomes the unmodified damage that you take. Obviously, this means that higher weapskill will increase damage (but won't bring you above the damage table's cap. Weapskill directly modifies the attacker's ability to bypass defenses such as parry, and directly modifies the attacker's ability to bring his damage close to the cap). On the same note, the higher your AF is, the lower the unmodified damage will become.
Once the unmodified damage has been calculated, absorb buffs are taken into effect. If you have a 10% absorb buff on you for example and the unmodified damage is 200, that damage will decrease to 180.
Once you have that number, resists are added. For example, if the damage at that point is 400 and the target has 25% resist to that damage type, the final damage that will be displayed is 300(-100)
Asking for the AF/weapskill/damage table formula is futile though since at this point I don't believe anyone has calculated that formula with success since there are so many variables in the formula, such as minor things like quickness decreasing the cap.
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Insolent_Ant
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Date Posted:
8/14/04 1:55pm
Subject:
RE: What exactly does AF do? How does it relate to ABS?
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The explanation of how absorb works in this thread is incorrect.
Absorb from armor has a double effect. It increases AF and it directly decreases damage similar to resists. Absorb from spells stacks onto armor absorb only for the second effect, direct damage reduction. That is why, in pre-NF, BoF reduced damage much more than 50%. That is why Avoid Pain was more effective than Armor of Faith. That is why a 9% absorb buff is more effective on a plate wearer than on a leather wearer.
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Karisuta
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Date Posted:
8/14/04 9:23pm
Subject:
RE: What exactly does AF do? How does it relate to ABS?
- Date Edited:
8/14/04 9:53pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Karisuta
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^^^ Armor 'Absorb %' decreases damage BY raising AF, so I wouldnt exactly say it has a double effect.
ABS buffs also work in a similar fashion by invisibly increasing your AF beyond what it shows on your display. Note the following examples...
Lvl 50 Friar in 100% lvl 50 Leather (No ABS Buff up)
500 x 1.10 (1.abs) = 550 AF
Lvl 50 Friar in 100% lvl 50 Leather (15% ABS Buff up)
500 x 1.25 (1.abs+15) = 625 'Effective' AF (Even though your display still shows 550 AF).
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Sartanus
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Date Posted:
8/15/04 11:07am
Subject:
RE: What exactly does AF do? How does it relate to ABS?
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Few things I got from a night of arguing with a guildie and parsing some logs, pardon me if I am off, on vacation and dont have access to my logs atm.
The base absorb/etc values I have seen alot, base 500 af * 1.27(for chain) yielding 635 af.
For base buffs it kind of negates lower qual armor/degrading effects, if your AF total is at say 550 af and has potential of maxing at 635 af, the baseline buff "Appears" to bring this up to the 635 limit.
I noticed no real difference in binary hit/miss with higher af, while its a small sample size, I noticed an insignificant difference in hit/miss rate, I attribute it to only using a couple hundred attacks for each sample.
What I found to be interesting, I have seen spec af = ap1.5 for albs and on and on, in old system this would imply a 15% absorb bonus applied on top? Might be higher, I used yellow spec af buff for my tests. Feel free to nitpick/correct me ont his if I am OTL I dont have my logs handy so I am going from memory here.
I used yellow spec af for testing
Delve - 55 af * 1.2(enh spec bonus) * 1.25 (toa + buff% gear) for 82.5af (rounded down to 82).
I noted there was around 120-130 point af change between the advertised 82 af it was giving me on paper, there appears to be another calculation added that applies absorb of your armor type to this
I had dubbed the 82 to 120-130 point af difference as "Gravy" AF. It appeared to be tied to the absorb value of the armor, and the value of the buff multiplied in some bizarre fashion, think I had worked something out that sounded legible too for formula =)
My logs indicated around a 5% redux in damage, instead of the supposed ns/sb whine of a 12-13% absorb difference that should appear with that spec af yielding 120-130 extra af.
Taking a "Baseline" af of ~80 and looking at ~50 points of "gravy" af it appears there is a certain ammount of chaff AF involved(the 80), as well this played perfectly into my 5% absorb value which I had observed having my cleric assaulting my merc from behind standing in a heal font for an hour or so.
If I am dead wrong, I apologize and hope I dont cause anyone stress/anger/hatred by me posting some vague memories of a bored night and some number crunching. If I am going in right track but way the hell off on numbers please correct as necessary, enjoy.
Cheers
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Karisuta
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Date Posted:
8/15/04 5:17pm
Subject:
RE: What exactly does AF do? How does it relate to ABS?
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Based on tests I've done with the yellow Cleric specline AF buff, it's dropped melee damage down by up to 15%.
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Insolent_Ant
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Date Posted:
8/16/04 11:21am
Subject:
RE: What exactly does AF do? How does it relate to ABS?
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"^^^ Armor 'Absorb %' decreases damage BY raising AF, so I wouldnt exactly say it has a double effect.
ABS buffs also work in a similar fashion by invisibly increasing your AF beyond what it shows on your display. Note the following examples... "
Again, no. Armor absorb decreases damage by increasing AF and by direct reduction (which stacks with spells). There is no "invisible AF" and I have no idea why anyone would make up such an odd explanation. To use the Friar example:
Lvl 50 Friar in 100% lvl 50 Leather (No ABS Buff up)
500 x 1.10 (1.abs) = 550 AF. After damage vs. AF calculation occurs, damage reduced by 10% due to armor.
Lvl 50 Friar in 100% lvl 50 Leather (15% ABS Buff up)
500 x 1.10 (10% armor absorb) = 550 AF. After damage vs. AF calculation occurs, damage reduced by 10%+15%=25% due to armor+spell absorb.
This fits the data perfectly especially when you look at high +absorb RA's like the old BoF and AP3. The higher the persons armor absorb the higher the damage reduction from the RA. If it only added to "invisible AF" you would see diminishing returns to scale instead of the increasing returns that we actually observe.
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Karisuta
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Date Posted:
8/16/04 11:47am
Subject:
RE: What exactly does AF do? How does it relate to ABS?
- Date Edited:
8/16/04 12:07pm (3 edits total)
Edited By:
Karisuta
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Again, no. Armor absorb decreases damage by increasing AF and by direct reduction (which stacks with spells). There is no "invisible AF" and I have no idea why anyone would make up such an odd explanation.
------------------------------------------------------
Your theory is incorrect. If it was correct then a person in two different types of Armor but still the same AF (due to AF buffage on one end to bring it up) would still take different damage, assuming all other variables being neutral...simply due to the armor 'absorb' differences in the armor types...
I ran a test the other night with my Gaheris Paladin. She was wearing no jewelry items & had 0% crush resistance in both tests.
In test #1 she was wearing a full suit of plain non-SC 99% alb studded armor & had 666 AF on her character display with her self AF buff on. Armor was enchanted to 35% bonus.
In test #2 she was wearing a full suit of plain non-SC 99% alb plate armor & had 663 AF on her character display with no AF buffs up. Armor was enchanted to 35% bonus.
My fully buffed shaman attacked her in both tests using a PC 99% 2HND Quarterstaff (Crush). 200+ attacks per test & average damage per hit calculated.
Once you factored in the fact that the alb Plate is crush vulnerable & Studded is crush resistant...& removed that from the damage results...she took almost the exact same damge in each test average in both RF & Plate...with AF 666 & 663 respectively.
That would indicate to me that 'Armor ABS' is doing NOTHING but increasing AF for damage calculations. If your theory above was true, the plate wearer still would have taken 15% less damage per hit average due to the Plate vs RF armor 'absorb' differences.
Thus, I will stand by my theory that when you are hit, the game is taking your (BASE AF + AF BONUSES) x (1.ArmorABS+BONUSES) to derive an new 'effective AF' score for that body piece being hit. How else can you explain people with the same basic AF, regardless of armor type, being hit for the same damage when every other outside modifier is neutralized from the results?
That's why the old BoF RA +AF increase helped higher 'absorb' armor types more...the BoF +AF bonus was being added to the other AF+AFbonuses BEFORE the x1.abs was applied, like I cited above. AF & ABS are interconnected to form a single damage reducing value which I call the 'true effective AF' for lack of a better term.
<edited for clarity>
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Sartanus
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Date Posted:
8/16/04 6:44pm
Subject:
RE: What exactly does AF do? How does it relate to ABS?
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Yea I was wrong, the ~100 af given from yellow af granted around a 10% redux, guess I was smoking something good whenI typed that long version below.
-----------------------------------------------------
Victim - Cleric
Attacker - Merc - unbuffed, 1519 weaponskill, 253 str
Mean damage, crits are ignored, unstyled attacks, using mainhand weapon only, 2.5 spd hammer
Round 1
645 af
Average damage(120 attacks) 82.8 damage
Round 2
753 af
Average damage(120 attacks) 73.7
Conclusions
-----------
Taking 10% reduction off the initial damgae would give
82.8 -> 10% is 8.28
subtracting 8.28 from 82.8 yields 74.5 giving small sample size and quickness of parse I can say ~10% redux is a valid thing, I apologize for the crap I spewed on the previous post, my humblest of apologies, I guess its close enough to justify I am on crack and need to relook at my logs when I get home, I would have reached this same conclusion hehe =)
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Too many bloody lvl50s to count - Hardcore PvE whore!
Sart/Ohmega/Lohad
Proud member of <Knights who say Ni>
"Zerg" is a term used by Hib and Mid gank groups to try
to trick Alb pick up groups into getting farmed.
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Karisuta
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Date Posted:
8/19/04 1:15pm
Subject:
RE: What exactly does AF do? How does it relate to ABS?
- Date Edited:
8/19/04 1:43pm (3 edits total)
Edited By:
Karisuta
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OK, I went back & did some more tests using some larger data samples, & I also realized my Gaheris Paladin was NOT (doh! O_o) wearing Albion studded (crush resistant) armor (except helm) during my first test I quoted above. With all that in mind I went back & tried some new tests & removed the mistake I had made in my earlier test...
Attacker in ALL tests = Fully buffed Lvl 50 Shaman w/2HND 99% Quality Quarterstaff (CRUSH Damage)
Attacks per test = 400+ each
Test #1
- lvl 50 Paladin wearing Lvl 50, 99% Quality Albion Plate Armor
- Albion Plate is Crush VULNERABLE (+10% Damage Taken)
- 0% Crush Resistance on Character During Test
- Armor Factor During Test = 663
- Results AFTER removing the 10% Plate Crush vulnerabilities from ALL hits...
<<< Average Damage Taken = 84 Damage Per Hit >>>
Test #2
- Lvl 50 Paladin wearing Lvl 50, 99% Quality Albion Studded + Self AF Buff
- Albion Studded is Crush RESISTANT (-10% Damage Taken)
- 0% Crush Resistance on Character During Test
- Armor Factor During Test = 666
- Results AFTER removing the 10% Studded Crush resistances from ALL hits...
<<< Average Damage Taken = 96 Damage Per Hit >>>
Test #3
- Lvl 50 Paladin wearing Lvl 50, 99% Quality Albion Studded + NO AF BUFFS
- Albion Studded is Crush RESISTANT (-10% Damage Taken)
- 0% Crush Resistance on Character During Test
- Armor Factor During Test = 592
- Results AFTER removing the 10% Studded Crush resistances from ALL hits...
<<< Average Damage Taken = 107 Damage Per Hit >>>
CONCLUSIONS...
Insolent_Ant, who posted earlier in this thread, seems correct in his assertion that AF & ABS are two sequential & SEPARATE damage modifiers in the first part of damage calculations.
It appears as though armor provides BOTH a <+AF buff> AND a <+ABS buff> in one total-yet-separate package...meaning the damage differences in armor are both the difference in their 'Effective AF' values AND the difference in their straight % reduction via the ABS value.
Notice how even with almost the exact same AF score, the Studded Armor Paladin took approx 13% more damage...which is about in line with their ABS % differences (15%). Notice how with standard 592 Studded AF, the Studded Paladin took 21%+ damage over the Plate Paladin test...the result of having -15% ABS absorb AND having -71 AF combined.
Apparently the ABS gives an AF bonus to armor, IN ADDITION to it's straight % absorb value during the initial melee damage calculations. When an opponent attacks you, their weaponskill is compared to your AF value to determine their initial damage range possible on you, AND THEN the ABS % is applied to that damage number rolled, in a direct damage reduction capacity. After than, the new modified damage is passed along to where Armor Resistances/Vulnerabilities, Melee Resists, etc are applied in further layers as necessary to reduce/increase the damage accordingly.
Thus, for example, the difference in damage taken between Lvl 50 100% Plate & Chain (outside of innate Armor vulnerabilities/resistances) is the difference in damage reduction from +35 AF AND the 7% direct ABS melee absorb...approx 10% total.
There you have it. I hope all that made sense. 
<edit for some spelling & clarity>
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vn_joop
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Date Posted:
8/20/04 12:29am
Subject:
RE: What exactly does AF do? How does it relate to ABS?
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^^ very nice testing there, good concise results with helpful explanations /salute
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Insolent_Ant
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Date Posted:
8/20/04 10:44am
Subject:
RE: What exactly does AF do? How does it relate to ABS?
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Thank you for running the tests and posting them here for us! I'm on vacation so didn't have access to back up my claims myself.
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I'll miss you Eka. Efaiim, 70 tauren shaman, Kilrogg (PvE) Sevoac, 70 tauren druid, Kilrogg (PvE) 70 mage (PvE), 69 paladin (PvP), 60 warrior (PvP)
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