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Trague
(Registered)
Posts : 26
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Merc v BM v Zerker |
11/14/06 12:54 PM |
im gonna be starting out fresh on classic server and i dont give a dam about any server i play
was wondering witch 1 i should play ? ...wouldent mind help plz
in advance tvm ! |
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doeridid
(Registered)
Posts : 9285
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RE: Merc v BM v Zerker |
11/14/06 3:20 PM |
The most common way people compare these classes is via their class unique abilities, in a 1v1 setting.
In this view, it's pretty much Merc>BM>Zerker.
The Merc's DT nerfs the damage of either opponent.
The BMs TW gives moderate damage increase and negates crits, which effectively negates the entire Zerker's Frenzy.
The Zerker's Frenzy is negated either by DT or TW, and thus carries no benefit.
However, this setting is a rather useless way to compare the classes, since the only time they'll fight each other is w/ noobs at the controls.
In RvR, the Light Tanks job is essentially to get into the enemy fast (Stoicism+Det, Charge), lay out some big damage to casters/support, and interrupt the casters/support via Banelord, melee, or just forcing them to flee.
All 3 classes get Charge and Stoicism, so in that way they are 100% equal.
In the ability to lay out big hits against ideal targets, their class abilities suddenly reverse.
Frenzy>>TW>>DT.
Frenzy has no penalty when you're hitting some one running away, and it gives the greatest damage increase.
Then comes spec performance...
On paper, all 3 balance.
Then you come to styles.
Until recently, Mercs had arguably the BEST side combo in the game, followed very closesly by Savages and BMs.
However, with the recent change to Decaying Rage in LA, that's all changed.
Now, the Zerker has access to a single style stun from the side, with a devastating followup, that sets up their rear combo which is also devastating...
At this point, I think the Merc and Zerker are about even on style performance, with the Savage trailing a little and the BM just a tad behind.
Basically, they're all VERY close now, and the player will ultimately determine which one is best in this regard.
Personally, I'd go Zerker for the Frenzy+Banespike option.
Since you specified Classic, that's really not relavent.
I think in the end that they shake out more evenly today than they ever have in the past.
Quote from Dirshaun -Intelligent discourse with someone who has intellect is is far more gratifying then nearly any other pursuit. I enjoy the debate, even if I lose. In this case I really can't lose because I learn more about the game. |
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CompleteShift
(Shitbag)
Posts : 5072
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RE: Merc v BM v Zerker |
11/14/06 4:36 PM |
Blademaster is the best. 1v1, Mercs have an advantage with Dirty Tricks, but once you're RR5, the Blademaster's RR5 can nearly negate that advantage, and Blademasters have the best style utility of all three classes (side and rear snares, and a side stun).
If you're looking for a solo class, an Armsman will most likely outperform a Mercenary due to their ability to effectively hybrid spec to get Slam and Defender's Rage, and they have an anytime snare in Polearm, as well as side and rear snares in Two-Handed which both chain into stuns.
Bottom line, I believe you will be disappointed in Mercenary performance on classic, as they're largely unneeded and replaced by Armsmen. Berserkers, likewise, are somewhat replaced by Savages. Basically light tanks' only advantage right now is Charge, and with Det5+Stoicism, demez, and longer fights, it's hardly an advantage at all.
If you choose Albion, I recommend Armsman, if you choose Midgard, I recommend Savage. Blademasters are somewhat viable in Hibernia, and probably the best choice in terms of style utility. |
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doeridid
(Registered)
Posts : 9285
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RE: Merc v BM v Zerker |
11/14/06 6:22 PM |
Umm... You need to get up to date a bit buddy.
First of all... Dirty Tricks is pretty good at negating ANY 1v1 melee opponent. It doesn't shut down all attacks, but makes style combos nearly impossible.
Second, Triple Wield negates critical hits. It does absolutely nothing to counter Dirty Tricks.
Now on to actual performance...
Decaying Rage was recently made into a side positional for Zerkers, and it packs a .95 GR and a 5s stun. The followup to that is Aurora Borealis, which packs a 1.25 GR and a ASR debuff.
Then, of course, that side combo leads very conveniently to the SnowSqual>IcyBrilliance combo, which carries .98 and 1.14 GR respectively.
Considering the ease of landing a side style in group/zerg RvR, that's essentially a locked kill unless the target has PBT protection to ruin the combos.
In which case, the Merc or BM would be SoL also...
Mercs still have an awesome side combo of .93 and 1.08 GR, and their devastating .85 frontal style + bleed.
BMs, while they do have a (edited) rear snare, it carries only a .65 GR. Not impressive compared to the other two. BMs also do not have access to a positional or anytime stun (if you want SLAM, go hybrid Hero), while the Merc has stun in an anytime combo via Crush spec and the Zerker has it as a single style side stun.
That's not to say that BMs are gimp in any manner. They hit HARD and have some decent styles. But you need to catch up on your info...
BMs may have owned the top of the hill for a while, though Mercs were right behind. Now though, the Zerkers have regained a lot of their lost performance, and are AT LEAST as potent as the other two, if not moreso now.
Quote from Dirshaun -Intelligent discourse with someone who has intellect is is far more gratifying then nearly any other pursuit. I enjoy the debate, even if I lose. In this case I really can't lose because I learn more about the game. |
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umodian
(Registered)
Posts : 194
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RE: Merc v BM v Zerker |
11/15/06 2:10 PM |
Actually, BMs get a 4 sec side stun at 18CD, (Ice Storm) with .77 GR.
Followed up by Tempest with a .98GR +bleed, followed up by Supernova 1.28 GR + slowing attack speed..
BMs have no side snare, instead a backstyle snare: Snow Shower
Just a correction ;)
Umodian - Hib/Palo, RR8LX Warden Videos |
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doeridid
(Registered)
Posts : 9285
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RE: Merc v BM v Zerker |
11/15/06 3:37 PM |
^^ So they do. The charplanner I use didn't show that stun; had to check the Herald style list to be sure.
In view of that side stun, I agree that BMs are equal to the Mercs and Zerks with regard to style performance. I'll still not concede that they have superior style options, but they are surely AS good.
Quote from Dirshaun -Intelligent discourse with someone who has intellect is is far more gratifying then nearly any other pursuit. I enjoy the debate, even if I lose. In this case I really can't lose because I learn more about the game. |
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Ensley
(1337 NooBit™)
Posts : 5057
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RE: Merc v BM v Zerker |
11/15/06 9:25 PM |
Wow, Doeridid. You don't think Blademasters have better positionals than Mercenaries...ROFL!!!
Perhaps it's logic like this that caused you to run away to Gay Harris... "If you play to win, as I do, the game never ends." -Stan Mikita |
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CompleteShift
(Shitbag)
Posts : 5072
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RE: Merc v BM v Zerker |
11/15/06 11:16 PM |
"Umm... You need to get up to date a bit buddy."
I am up to date, you need to brush up on your reading comprehension.
"First of all... Dirty Tricks is pretty good at negating ANY 1v1 melee opponent. It doesn't shut down all attacks, but makes style combos nearly impossible."
It's a 50% chance to proc a 50% fumble debuff. It's not an Iwin button, it's just a fairly potent debuff. Several ways to deal with it depending on what class you are.
"Second, Triple Wield negates critical hits. It does absolutely nothing to counter Dirty Tricks."
I did not mention Triple Wield at all. I mentioned the RR5, which is a 90% chance to parry all melee attacks. It's hard to fumble someone you can't hit.
Since you would like to mention Triple Wield, it is generally superior to both Dirty Tricks and Beserk because while it does have the 50% DPS bonus like Beserk (whose crits average to about a 50% DPS increase), it does not have the defensive penality, and it stacks with critical hits that would have normally occured, which means that it does not negate Mastery of Pain when it is activated (you can not have more than a 100% chance to critical hit). It's difficult to compare it to Dirty Tricks, since they are such different abilities, but Dirty Tricks only affects melee classes attacking you (which is less than all of the classes in the game), where Triple Wield has the potention to benefit you against all classes in the game.
"Considering the ease of landing a side style in group/zerg RvR"
Considering the lack of ease, that's why two of the most requested items by players on the Merc TL report is a Flank to-hit bonus and a Rear Hinder. Fortunately, Blademasters have to-hit bonuses already on both their side and Rear Hinders, as well as their side stun.
Mercs still have an awesome side combo of .93 and 1.08 GR, and their devastating .85 frontal style + bleed.
Where are you getting these numbers? afaik, Flank (with its no to-hit bonus) is a .85 growth rate, and Shadow's Rain is a 1.05 growth rate, with Dual Shadows being a .8, which has a 20 point bleed that breaks mezzes, roots, and hinders.
BMs, while they do have a (edited) rear snare, it carries only a .65 GR. Not impressive compared to the other two. BMs also do not have access to a positional or anytime stun (if you want SLAM, go hybrid Hero), while the Merc has stun in an anytime combo via Crush spec and the Zerker has it as a single style side stun.
Mercs can take a damage loss going Crush to get a 6 second anytime 2-part stun, or go Hybrid to get a 9 second stun, greatly reducing the damage on Dual Shadows, a frequently used front-positional spammable style. Blademasters can go Hybrid spec with far greater penalty, as the only style affected is Supernova, a third-in-side style, a rarely used style (hey, at least they get a third in their side chain, Mercs don't).
"But you need to catch up on your info..."
I do believe you need to spend a bit more time doing research and reading my posts more thoroughly before jumping to conclusions. All of my information thus far has been correct. |
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doeridid
(Registered)
Posts : 9285
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RE: Merc v BM v Zerker |
11/16/06 9:37 AM |
" I did not mention Triple Wield at all. I mentioned the RR5, which is a 90% chance to parry all melee attacks. It's hard to fumble someone you can't hit."
From the Herald:
"For 30 seconds the blademaster parries 90% of all melee attacks. The blademaster is unable to attack during this time. If the blademaster attempts a style while this effect is still up, it will cancel the effect."
I bolded the pertinent part.
Merc pops DT. BM pops RR5. Both end up just waiting out the duration and are back to a straight up fight. At best that evens the odds, but then if you let the BM pop his RR5, then you have to allow the same on the Merc which is an additional fumble debuff once the BM starts fighting again...
And again, in 1v1 DT has proven to be far superior to either of the other two. But it doesn't matter since any light tank that chooses to fight another light tank in RvR is going to find himself groupless real fast.
To-Hit bonuses have nothing to do with positioning, or your opponent's defenses. They ONLY have to do with the final hit/miss roll. As such, in RvR the only classes that have enough AF to make this an issue are tanks. And we're back to "light tanks shouldn't be hitting other tanks."
Regarding the GRs on Merc styles... Hmmm, I'm finding 3 different values now that you have me looking. Even going with the lowest (the ones you gave), all 3 of those styles are solid performers. That bleed you dismiss is essentially an unresistable DoT that'll keep that target in combat and do decent damage.
Who said hybrid anything? I'd never suggest it for anything but a PvE only toon, and the compromises in templating overweigh any added defense.
Three style combos are an advantage? Hm. Nearly every TL on a class that has a 3-part style is asking to have them broken. Seems everyone else considers a 3-part chain unreliable in RvR. To each his own though, if you can land that sucker w/ confidense then more power to ya.
Nothing you've presented has indicated that a Merc is in any way inferior to a BM, and while the Armsman competes for the same position on CLassic, I don't see any compelling evidence that playing a BM would generate any different results.
And with the recent change to LA, the advantage that Savages DID have over Zerkers is largely negated (side styles are generally easier to get in RvR than rear styles, due to much larger side arc).
Quote from Dirshaun -Intelligent discourse with someone who has intellect is is far more gratifying then nearly any other pursuit. I enjoy the debate, even if I lose. In this case I really can't lose because I learn more about the game. |
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Ensley
(1337 NooBit™)
Posts : 5057
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RE: Merc v BM v Zerker |
11/16/06 7:45 PM |
Wow, you're posting as if this is a game of 1v1 dueling. My Bard can't beat a Mercenary either but guess what, nobody cares. Blademasters and Berserkers are FAR better in an 8 man than Mercenaries because having chain armor means absolutely nothing since you get nuked the same anyways, and defense doesn't win fights. Mythic finally realized this, which is why they gave so much cool stuff to heavy tanks.
The Mercenary's lack of a back style that's worth a fuck is the biggest factor of their gimpness. That, and both other light tanks having side style chains with stuns and extremely high growth rates, and their unique abilities actually do DAMAGE! THOSE are what win fights in 8v8. NOT chain armor and NOT Dirty Tricks which does fuckin' NOTHING to casters/support and barely does anything to tanks (which means nothing in 8v8).
Not to mention, even the reactionary styles that Mercenaries have are worse than both of the other light tanks, and Berserkers have by far the best anytime style of the three.
Blademaster >>>>>>>>>>>>> Berserker >>>> Mercenary. "If you play to win, as I do, the game never ends." -Stan Mikita |
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CompleteShift
(Shitbag)
Posts : 5072
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RE: Merc v BM v Zerker |
11/16/06 10:43 PM |
"But it doesn't matter since any light tank that chooses to fight another light tank in RvR is going to find himself groupless real fast."
Thus why Triple Wield is generally more effective.
"To-Hit bonuses have nothing to do with positioning, or your opponent's defenses. They ONLY have to do with the final hit/miss roll. As such, in RvR the only classes that have enough AF to make this an issue are tanks."
AF has nothing to do with hit/miss checks. I really can't find the tests on it, but on the VN fighter boards testing was done, and a 100% hit rate is only achieveable with a Very High To-Hit bonus with normal weapons, and a Medium To-Hit bonus with Artifacts. I will try to find the testing, but it is the most accurate and thorough testing I've seen concerning to-hit bonuses and how it affects hit/miss rates.
"That bleed you dismiss is essentially an unresistable DoT that'll keep that target in combat and do decent damage"
It will also give near-CC immunity, much like the GoV DoT proc that so many try to keep out of their templates because of it.
"Three style combos are an advantage? Hm. Nearly every TL on a class that has a 3-part style is asking to have them broken. Seems everyone else considers a 3-part chain unreliable in RvR. To each his own though, if you can land that sucker w/ confidense then more power to ya."
Mercenaries only have Charge over Armsmen. Armsmen outperform Mercenaries in every other aspect on Classic servers. This is not true for BMs and Heros on classic. |
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OldTankster
(Registered)
Posts : 1463
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RE: Merc v BM v Zerker |
11/17/06 1:18 AM |
"The Mercenary's lack of a back style that's worth a fuck is the biggest factor of their gimpness. "
HAHAHAHA That is a FUNNY one. Ensley at his/her absurd best.
I've seen some people SAY that an armsman is better on a Classic but never seen anyone back it up with a solid argument. True on Classic Mercs don't get banelord but since banelord was never what made a Merc worth running that is an absurd argument. Don't get me wrong, an armsman is a good solid class now. That takes nothing away from a Merc's effectiveness and anyone on Classic who can't see that is just dim.
Saying that Armsmen outperform mercs doesn't make it so, friend. They don't out damage them. They don't have more HP. They have some nice abilities but so do Mercs. Each has their own place in the scheme of things. It's a shame you have to try to build yourself up by tearing other people down. But that's your problem. It takes nothing away from mercs.
All the light tank classes have their good and bad points. Anyone who has says that the RR5 Merc ability is weak and that defense has no place in RvR has never seen it break up an assist train. I love seeing someone use their purge when they get hit with that debuff that CompleteShift so blithely writes off. There in fact is no way to deal with it except to wait it out. With any luck in the meantime you're dead.
As far as choosing which light tank to play, I'd personally go with the realm you want to play. All the light tanks do just fine on Classic. Large skepticism leads to large understanding. Small skepticism leads to small understanding. No skepticism leads to no understanding. Xi Zhi |
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CompleteShift
(Shitbag)
Posts : 5072
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RE: Merc v BM v Zerker |
11/17/06 2:15 AM |
"Saying that Armsmen outperform mercs doesn't make it so, friend. They don't out damage them. They don't have more HP."
ROFL. Try reading the patch notes, scrub! Kyera sends the kick from VN.
"Upon reaching level 41, the Hero, Warrior and Armsman will begin to gain more hitpoints as they progress towards level 50. At each level beyond 41 they gain 1% extra Hit points per level. At level 50, they will have the full 10% benefit."
Source: Patch 1.81
"Upon reaching level 41, the Hero, Warrior and Armsman will begin to gain more magic resistance (spell damage reduction only) as they progress towards level 50. At each level beyond 41 they gain 2%-3% extra resistance per level. At level 50, they will have the full 15% benefit."
Source: Patch 1.81
I might also add that Armsmen have Constitution as a secondary stat, where Mercenaries have it as tertiary, so Armsmen gain another 8 constitution (~43 hits) over Mercs just because of that =).
Source: CamelotHerald
Hypothetical Scenarios: Merc and Armsman, Merc using 4.2 spd mainhand 4.1 spd offhand. Armsman using 5.8 two-handed. Both have 233 quickness (60 base, 93 buff, 80 in template).
Mercenary swing speed before celerity: 1.907064s
Armsman swing speed before celerity: 2.731104s
Let's factor in that celerity now.
Mercenary: 1.20145032s
Armsman: 1.72059552s
(Calculations done using Spydor's formula, using Tirral's method (RR10 Reaver, RR7 Champion))
Oh, lookit that, the Armsman gets the full 37% benefit of celerity, while the Mercenary only benefits from 21% Celerity. Armsman's getting a higher DPS increase here than the Mercenary. Add in Defender's Rage being a 1.20 growth rate compared to the Mercenary's Dual Shadows being .80 (or .85, or whatever), the Armsman easily having Slam, higher magic resists, more HPs, Fury, all his anti-CC abilities really gives the Mercenary only one distinct advantage when it comes to groups: Charge.
(Growth Rates from Wyrd's table with common modifications)
You can come up with these stories about how X effect breaks up assist trains, but unless you show proof, you can't say for sure. |
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doeridid
(Registered)
Posts : 9285
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RE: Merc v BM v Zerker |
11/17/06 7:31 PM |
1) Armsmen DO NOT outdamage Mercs. Or at least not comparably equipped/buffed/RR Mercs. Their hits are larger, but slower. Even if some one LETS the Armsman use Defender's Rage (and you pretty much have to LET them, as frontal styles are the easiest to avoid), they don't surpass the Merc's DPS. To use Celerity as proof of anything is more than absurd. Paladin's Celerity has a 350 radius, which is EASY to get outside of even in the A-train. And that makes the assumption that you even HAVE a Paladin in your A-train... No Stoicism or charge makes him the EASIEST part of the A-train to derail.
2) Mercenaries DPS is also more reliable, since dual wield penetrates shield (including /guard) and evade, and is less impacted by PBT.
3) Against equal level targets (level does affect this), artifact and CL weapons have a base 5% and all other weapons (including those summoned by artifacts) have a base 10% miss rate. That is modified upward and downward by level and AF. Casters' and rogues' does increase misses, but not by much. Studded and chain are noticeable, but even these will have a very low miss rate even w/ unstyled swings. But you get into Paladins and Heretics, with 800+ AF (can actually break 1000) an the miss rate is GREATLY impacted.
Throughout all this though, your weapon (artifact/CL or otherwise), your level versus your opponent's level, and your style to-hit are all that affect this.
WS plays no part in the final hit/miss.
Against other equal level opponents, and especially casters, even unstyled hits are very reliable.
4) GoV not in templates because of the DoT.
OMG, ROFL. Find me a serious melee template on a TOA server that doesn't use GoV. Yeah, there's a few out there. Not many though. If that DoT was a serious issue, and if people are really avoiding it, then it wouldn't be the most common element in all templates.
But it is.
CC immunity happens pretty fast in most fights anyway. Certainly fast enough that any target that a BM is FACING to fight, and trying to kill, can be given a bleed style w/o disrupting the fight. And if the guy is gonna bleed, wouldn't you rather it be a 20+ tic than a 5 or 7 tic?
Guess not...
5) Regarding the frontal/rear versus side styles...
Frontal and rear arcs are each 60 degrees.
Side arcs are both 120 degrees.
This means that a fleeing opponent can ruin your rear style by making a 31 degree change in direction.
Conversely though, ANYWHERE in the general side area of the target is fair game for a side style.
Hell, I can get side styles off with some regularity in 1v1 w/o even using any lag tricks.
The side styles are the bread and butter of meleers.
Rear styles certainly have their value and place. But if I had to pick a solid 2-part side chain over a rear snare, I'd take the side chain on any class whose purpose is DPS.
Quote from Dirshaun -Intelligent discourse with someone who has intellect is is far more gratifying then nearly any other pursuit. I enjoy the debate, even if I lose. In this case I really can't lose because I learn more about the game. |
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Ensley
(1337 NooBit™)
Posts : 5057
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RE: Merc v BM v Zerker |
11/17/06 9:10 PM |
They don't have more HP
Yeah...that right there dropped you from an already worthless poster to someone who deserves to be banned due to sheer stupidity.
It's one thing to be a noob...everybody had to be a noob at everything at some point, but the truly amusing (and somewhat frightening) attribute you possess is you actually believe you know something about DAoC.
You've already been e-raped two posts in a row, so I'll just leave it at that.
Doeridid, way to dodge. You know that Mercenaries have basically NOTHING for a backstyle, and being as you seem to be such a fan of side styles, are you still pretending that a Mercenary's side style is remotely close to being on par with a Blademasters? "If you play to win, as I do, the game never ends." -Stan Mikita |
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CompleteShift
(Shitbag)
Posts : 5072
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RE: Merc v BM v Zerker |
11/18/06 12:10 AM |
"OMG, ROFL. Find me a serious melee template on a TOA server that doesn't use GoV."
You're a total retard. Find me a serious Tank template that uses GoV. I'll make it better by using Eirene's Hauberk.
The only exceptions are those who use GoV for looks (and thus accepting the trade-off) or those who don't have access to a decent version of Eirene's Hauberk (such as Champions) or are too lazy to use GSV (highly superior for 8v8 than GoV). |
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doeridid
(Registered)
Posts : 9285
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RE: Merc v BM v Zerker |
11/18/06 2:46 PM |
Ensley,
Mercenary side combo>>
>>Flank w/ .85GR+snare, Shadow's Rain w/ 1.05GR+ASR
Blademaster side combo>>
>>Ice Storm w/ .77GR+stun, Tempest w/ .98GR+bleed, Supernova w/ 1.20+ASR
In the first 2 styles, the Merc outdamages the BM. IF the BM lands the 3rd style it's payday, but 3-part chains aren't real reliable.
The BMs superior side opener with its stun is somewhat mitigated by the fact that melee snares don't set immunity and can thus be reapplied repeatedly (unlike stuns). In this area I'd grant the BM a slight utility advantage that balances the slightly higher damage of the Merc.
The second style of each chain also balances very well. The Merc again has higher actual damage, while the BM gets the bleed. I think an ASR is largely a waste for these guys, as most smart players would choose to fight just about ANY class other than a Light Tank first.
If the BM gets to the 3rd style, he jumps way ahead in damage. Granted. Not likely, but it will make itself known when it lands.
I think that these two styles compare very evenly. The Merc might not be overtly better, but he surely doesn't come off weak either.
Complete Shift,
YOU may prefer to stay away from GoV. I also recognize that your reason for doing so is valid. However, the utility in the item and the fact that this DoT you hate so much isn't as much of a hindrance to others as you seem to feel keeps it a popular choice for most people
Need proof?
Got to daoctemplates.com. Checking their newest 10 right before posting this showed me 6 of 10 that had GoV in their template. 2 of those that didn't were casters. Only 1 used Eirene's.
I also agree that for the classes that have it as an option, GSV is superior in many ways to GoV. Unfortunately, this isn't the case for Mercs as it is a leather/studded only piece.
GoV stands as the most commonly templated chestpiece where it is an option (TOA servers).
I understand your reasoning, and agree with it to some degree.
I also recognize the high utility of the piece though.
And regardless of agreeing or not, it IS the most commonly templated chestpiece on TOA server.
Quote from Dirshaun -Intelligent discourse with someone who has intellect is is far more gratifying then nearly any other pursuit. I enjoy the debate, even if I lose. In this case I really can't lose because I learn more about the game. |
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CompleteShift
(Shitbag)
Posts : 5072
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RE: Merc v BM v Zerker |
11/18/06 4:35 PM |
GoV is the most popular because it's the most flexible item in the game as far as classes go.
Specific to Mercenaries, and 8v8, Eirene's is generally superior to GoV.
Other than the root-breaking proc of GoV, I've never been able to create a Merc temp that statwise worked better with GoV than Eirene's. (EDIT: Except for Thrust temps, but everyone lol's at Thrust Mercs).
LOKI Build Report
Class: Mercenary
Level: 50
Dual Wield
Item Utility: 812.3
Build Utility: 852.3
Useable Utility: 851.7
TOA Utility: 270.0
PvE Utility: 0.0
Statistic
Strength: 101/101
Constitution: 76/75
Dexterity: 0/75
Quickness: 74/75
Intelligence: 0/75
Piety: 0/75
Charisma: 0/75
Empathy: 0/75
Hits: 344/360
Power: 0/25
Resistance
Body: 24/26
Cold: 25/26+5
Heat: 25/26
Energy: 26/26
Matter: 25/26
Spirit: 14/26
Crush: 26/26+3
Thrust: 26/26
Slash: 26/26+2
Skill
Parry: 3/11
Crush: 4/11
Dual Wield: 11/11
Slash: 11/11
Thrust: 4/11
Cap Increase
Strength: 26/26
Hits: 160/200
TOA Bonus
Armour Factor: 10/50
Style Damage: 10/10
Melee Damage: 10/10
Melee Combat Speed: 12/10
Fatigue: 9/25
Chest (Eirene's Hauberk):
Imbue: 20.0
Strength: 15
Strength (Cap Increase): 5
Thrust: 6%
Slash: 6%
Style Damage: 4
Melee Damage: 4
Utility: 34.0
TOA Utility: 50.0
PvE Utility: 0.0
Arms (Crafted):
Imbue: 37.5/32 (Quality: 100)
Dual Wield: 4
Constitution: 22
Strength: 22
Quickness: 22
Utility: 64.0
TOA Utility: 0.0
PvE Utility: 0.0
Head (Crafted):
Imbue: 37.5/32 (Quality: 100)
Quickness: 25
Constitution: 22
Slash: 3
Energy: 9%
Utility: 64.3
TOA Utility: 0.0
PvE Utility: 0.0
Legs (Crafted):
Imbue: 37.5/32 (Quality: 100)
Dual Wield: 3
Energy: 7%
Constitution: 22
Hits: 76
Utility: 62.7
TOA Utility: 0.0
PvE Utility: 0.0
Hands (Crafted):
Imbue: 37.5/32 (Quality: 100)
Heat: 9%
Slash: 4
Crush: 9%
Cold: 7%
Utility: 70.0
TOA Utility: 0.0
PvE Utility: 0.0
Feet (Crafted):
Imbue: 37.5/32 (Quality: 100)
Hits: 76
Matter: 11%
Slash: 7%
Thrust: 3%
Utility: 61.0
TOA Utility: 0.0
PvE Utility: 0.0
Right Hand (Spear of Kings):
Imbue: 21.0
Crush: 4%
Thrust: 4%
Slash: 4%
Matter: 4%
Body: 4%
Spirit: 4%
Hits (Cap Increase): 40
Melee Combat Speed: 5
Fatigue: 5
Utility: 48.0
TOA Utility: 45.0
PvE Utility: 0.0
Left Hand (Mercenary Belial Blade):
Imbue: 23.0
Strength: 12
Quickness: 12
Dual Wield: 4
Strength (Cap Increase): 8
Style Damage: 4
Melee Damage: 4
Utility: 36.0
TOA Utility: 56.0
PvE Utility: 0.0
Neck (Ancient Copper Necklace):
Imbue: 45.0
Body: 10%
Spirit: 10%
Crush: 10%
Thrust: 10%
Utility: 80.0
TOA Utility: 0.0
PvE Utility: 0.0
Cloak (Shades of Mist):
Imbue: 20.0
Strength: 15
Quickness: 15
Parry: 3
Armour Factor: 10
Melee Combat Speed: 5
Fatigue: 4
Utility: 35.0
TOA Utility: 43.0
PvE Utility: 0.0
Jewel (Gem of Lost Memories):
Imbue: 18.5
Constitution: 10
Hits: 24
Body: 4%
Matter: 4%
ALL melee weapon skills: 2
Style Damage: 2
Melee Damage: 2
Utility: 38.7
TOA Utility: 20.0
PvE Utility: 0.0
Belt (Oglidarsh's Belt):
Imbue: 21.0
Strength: 15
Hits: 40
Strength (Cap Increase): 5
Hits (Cap Increase): 40
Crush: 3%
Thrust: 3%
Slash: 3%
Utility: 38.0
TOA Utility: 20.0
PvE Utility: 0.0
Left Ring (Asorath's Ring of Abomination):
Imbue: 23.0
Cold: 6%
Heat: 5%
Energy: 5%
Hits: 40
Hits (Cap Increase): 40
Utility: 42.0
TOA Utility: 10.0
PvE Utility: 0.0
Right Ring (Asorath's Ring of Abomination):
Imbue: 23.0
Cold: 6%
Heat: 5%
Energy: 5%
Hits: 40
Hits (Cap Increase): 40
Utility: 42.0
TOA Utility: 10.0
PvE Utility: 0.0
Left Wrist (Ebon Hide Bracer):
Imbue: 30.0
Body: 6%
Matter: 6%
Cold: 6%
Heat: 6%
Slash: 6%
Utility: 60.0
TOA Utility: 0.0
PvE Utility: 0.0
Right Wrist (Naxos Abalone Bracer):
Imbue: 23.5
Strength: 22
Hits: 48
ALL melee weapon skills: 2
Strength (Cap Increase): 8
Melee Combat Speed: 2
Utility: 36.7
TOA Utility: 26.0
PvE Utility: 0.0
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LOKI Build Report
Class: Mercenary
Level: 50
Dual Wield
Item Utility: 819.0
Build Utility: 879.0
Useable Utility: 874.3
TOA Utility: 314.0
PvE Utility: 0.0
Statistic
Strength: 101/101
Constitution: 86/85
Dexterity: 0/75
Quickness: 80/80
Intelligence: 0/75
Piety: 0/75
Charisma: 0/75
Empathy: 0/75
Hits: 320/320
Power: 0/25
Resistance
Body: 27/26
Cold: 23/26+5
Heat: 27/26
Energy: 26/26
Matter: 25/26
Spirit: 15/26
Crush: 25/26+3
Thrust: 25/26
Slash: 25/26+2
Skill
Parry: 3/11
Crush: 6/11
Dual Wield: 11/11
Slash: 11/11
Thrust: 6/11
Cap Increase
Strength: 26/26
Constitution: 10/26
Quickness: 5/26
Hits: 120/200
TOA Bonus
Armour Factor: 34/50
Style Damage: 13/10
Melee Damage: 11/10
Melee Combat Speed: 10/10
Fatigue: 9/25
Chest (Eirene's Hauberk):
Imbue: 20.0
Strength: 15
Slash: 6%
Thrust: 6%
Strength (Cap Increase): 5
Style Damage: 4
Melee Damage: 4
Utility: 34.0
TOA Utility: 50.0
PvE Utility: 0.0
Arms (Crafted):
Imbue: 37.5/32 (Quality: 100)
Strength: 7
Dual Wield: 4
Constitution: 22
Crush: 11%
Utility: 61.3
TOA Utility: 0.0
PvE Utility: 0.0
Head (Crafted):
Imbue: 37.5/32 (Quality: 100)
Matter: 9%
Dual Wield: 4
Quickness: 22
Constitution: 19
Utility: 65.3
TOA Utility: 0.0
PvE Utility: 0.0
Legs (Crafted):
Imbue: 37.5/32 (Quality: 100)
Hits: 68
Thrust: 5%
Slash: 5
Dual Wield: 3
Utility: 67.0
TOA Utility: 0.0
PvE Utility: 0.0
Hands (Maddening Scalars):
Imbue: 20.0
Constitution: 15
Quickness: 15
Hits: 40
Constitution (Cap Increase): 5
Quickness (Cap Increase): 5
Melee Damage: 3
Melee Combat Speed: 3
Utility: 30.0
TOA Utility: 50.0
PvE Utility: 0.0
Feet (Crafted):
Imbue: 37.5/32 (Quality: 100)
Slash: 9%
Energy: 11%
Quickness: 16
Matter: 5%
Utility: 60.7
TOA Utility: 0.0
PvE Utility: 0.0
Right Hand (Malice):
Imbue: 20.0
Strength: 15
Constitution: 15
Hits: 40
Strength (Cap Increase): 5
Constitution (Cap Increase): 5
Hits (Cap Increase): 40
Style Damage: 5
Fatigue: 5
Utility: 30.0
TOA Utility: 65.0
PvE Utility: 0.0
Left Hand (Slash CW):
Imbue: 23.0
Strength: 12
Quickness: 12
ALL melee weapon skills: 4
Strength (Cap Increase): 8
Style Damage: 4
Melee Damage: 4
Utility: 36.0
TOA Utility: 56.0
PvE Utility: 0.0
Neck (Ancient Copper Necklace):
Imbue: 45.0
Body: 10%
Spirit: 10%
Crush: 10%
Thrust: 10%
Utility: 80.0
TOA Utility: 0.0
PvE Utility: 0.0
Cloak (Shades of Mist):
Imbue: 20.0
Strength: 15
Quickness: 15
Parry: 3
Armour Factor: 10
Melee Combat Speed: 5
Fatigue: 4
Utility: 35.0
TOA Utility: 43.0
PvE Utility: 0.0
Jewel (Eerie Darkness Lighting Stone):
Imbue: 37.0
Body: 5%
Cold: 5%
Heat: 5%
Energy: 5%
Matter: 5%
Spirit: 5%
Crush: 4%
Slash: 4%
Thrust: 4%
Utility: 84.0
TOA Utility: 0.0
PvE Utility: 0.0
Belt (Lava Warped Belt):
Imbue: 31.0
Strength: 15
Constitution: 15
Hits: 44
Body: 6%
Heat: 6%
Utility: 55.0
TOA Utility: 0.0
PvE Utility: 0.0
Left Ring (Astaroth's Ring of Abomination):
Imbue: 23.0
Cold: 6%
Heat: 5%
Energy: 5%
Hits: 40
Armour Factor: 12
Hits (Cap Increase): 40
Utility: 42.0
TOA Utility: 22.0
PvE Utility: 0.0
Right Ring (Astaroth's Ring of Abomination):
Imbue: 23.0
Cold: 6%
Heat: 5%
Energy: 5%
Hits: 40
Armour Factor: 12
Hits (Cap Increase): 40
Utility: 42.0
TOA Utility: 22.0
PvE Utility: 0.0
Left Wrist (Ebon Hide Bracer):
Imbue: 30.0
Body: 6%
Cold: 6%
Heat: 6%
Matter: 6%
Slash: 6%
Utility: 60.0
TOA Utility: 0.0
PvE Utility: 0.0
Right Wrist (Naxos Abalone Bracer):
Imbue: 23.5
Strength: 22
Hits: 48
ALL melee weapon skills: 2
Strength (Cap Increase): 8
Melee Combat Speed: 2
Utility: 36.7
TOA Utility: 26.0
PvE Utility: 0.0
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Kyera
(Registered)
Posts : 7
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RE: Merc v BM v Zerker |
11/18/06 5:24 PM |
Not going to lie, this is a damn funny thread.
I'd put Mercenaries and Blademasters as equals in a 1v1 scenario, with Blademasters pulling ahead in 8v8.
But what would I know? ^_^ |
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doeridid
(Registered)
Posts : 9285
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RE: Merc v BM v Zerker |
11/19/06 2:40 AM |
Complete Shift,
In another thread you say:
"Through all this, NO ONE brings up the 50 Slash, 50 Dual Wield, 23 Shield, 17 Parry spec, which while probably is the worst spec for soloing, is probably close to the best for 8v8. Crap for defense, but at least it gives a rear stun (if you can get over the crappy dw/shield interface)."
Which I think is a pretty damn good idea, even if the interface for it would be a PITA to master.
However, by suggesting that the Merc be able to use a rear stun from shield spec, you remove one of the primary reasons a BM might be better.
If the guy runs, rear stun.
Strafe, begin flank.
If the guy tries to run again, re-snare w/ flank. Keep spamming flank, and he'll never get away and it does way better damage than Backslash (not just from higher GR, but because Backslash will leave you OOE very fast).
Regarding miss rates though...
Artifacts and Champion Weapons have a base 5% miss rate.
All other dropped/crafted/quested weapons have a base 10%.
That includes NO style bonuses at all, and an equal level opponent.
While Flank's lack of to-hit might be a problem on high AF opponents and in high end PvE, the Af of a caster won't make much difference in his hit/miss chance.
This is opinion, but opinion based on personal experience, but I believe the odds of missing due to lag/runthrough/strafing, or anything else in that category I didn't think of are higher than the base chance to miss w/ Flank.
Quote from Dirshaun -Intelligent discourse with someone who has intellect is is far more gratifying then nearly any other pursuit. I enjoy the debate, even if I lose. In this case I really can't lose because I learn more about the game. |
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CompleteShift
(Shitbag)
Posts : 5072
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RE: Merc v BM v Zerker |
11/19/06 2:51 AM |
"If the guy runs, rear stun.
Strafe, begin flank.
If the guy tries to run again, re-snare w/ flank. Keep spamming flank, and he'll never get away and it does way better damage than Backslash (not just from higher GR, but because Backslash will leave you OOE very fast)."
Show me someone who can spam Flank on someone running away. I will dub them an incredibly skilled Mercenary. It's very difficult to do such a thing, and I haven't seen it done in any 8v8 vids I've seen.
"Regarding miss rates though...
Artifacts and Champion Weapons have a base 5% miss rate.
All other dropped/crafted/quested weapons have a base 10%.
That includes NO style bonuses at all, and an equal level opponent.
While Flank's lack of to-hit might be a problem on high AF opponents and in high end PvE, the Af of a caster won't make much difference in his hit/miss chance."
I will make another attempt at finding the testing on VN, but I stand by my statements on miss rates.
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CompleteShift
(Shitbag)
Posts : 5072
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RE: Merc v BM v Zerker |
11/19/06 5:04 AM |
Finally found it!
To-hit bonus testing. |
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doeridid
(Registered)
Posts : 9285
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RE: Merc v BM v Zerker |
11/19/06 2:14 PM |
This guy acknowledges the enchantment bonus on armor, but doesn't do any testing with armor itself (as in AF).
For instance, in the 1v50 testing it was stated that the armor was +35% for the purpose of figuring out how the enchantment discrepancy affected to-hit.
However, a naked level 50 is far easier to hit than a level 50 in armor. You'll still miss a fair amount based solely on the level difference, but even a level1 (doesn't even have a to-hit style to use) will land far more blows on a 50 w/o any armor.
Give that same 50 a set of un-enchanted armor (even cloth) and the miss rate skyrockets.
Give that same 50 a set of un-enchanted heavy armor (chain or plate) and the hits are almost impossible...
...all this w/o even beginning to include armor enchantments.
Also, his stats combined with the weapon type baseline miss-rates, seems to support the AF influence, though he doesn't actually get into that.
The base miss-rate on an Artifact is 5% (acknowledged on internals, tested by TLs). Thus the 6% additioinal miss rate on artifacts, and 7% on non-artifacts would seem to be a direct resulf of the target's AF (which we don't know).
Try it. It doesn't take 1000 test swings to see the trend very fast.
Swing an unstyled level 50 weapon w/ full enchantment against a caster (w/ AF buff up) in level 50 cloth with full enchantement.
You'll see that the miss rate is almost negligible. This is the missrate you'd see using flank on a caster (since Flank doesn't increase your chance to land the hit).
As to landing a side style on a fleeing target...
Sprint adds 10% to your runspeed. Thus, any snare style that decreases speed by more than 10% means that you wouldn't have to sprint to keep up with the fleeing target.
Strafing speed is about 50% of runspeed. So any snare that was 50% or better and you could strafe and keep up with him.
The snare on Flank happens to be 100% (meaning it's actually a root). This means that as long as you're the only person hitting the guy, he'll never run away from you.
As to actually landing the positional requirement...
Side styles have a 120 degree window, while front and rear styles each have only 60 degree windows.
Thus, it is twice as easy to hit the side target as either of the others.
Results are simple...
For initial impact, the BM's side stun is admittedly superior. Given the damage capability, it's even possible that the target won't survie the stun, so what follows doesn't matter.
If the target DOES survive the stun, though, the stun immunity means that the BM is now using a decent but not great rear style to stop the runner.
The Merc gives up some initial impact utility of the stun for slightly higher damage on the first 2 parts of his chain. Versus casters, his miss rate w/ Flank WILL be negligible. If the caster is a runner, Flank ends up being a superior means of stopping him, since it generates no immunity (a la stun), has a higher GR (compared to either the side or rear BM style), and keeps the target immobilized.
In closing, I'd again like to emphasize that I'm not claiming that the Merc is superior. I'm only claiming that when viewing the entirety of each class as a package, that the Merc is JUST as good as the BM, and that for the first time in a long long while, the Zerkers are right in the mix too.
BTW, in looking over those Eirene's templates, I'm impressed. Especially the second one, very very good.
And yet, GoV is still the most popular chestpiece. As logical as your arguement is, and as good as your templates are, I just don't believe that it's as black and white as you claim. If the DoT on GoV were a BIG issue, it'd fall out of favor. Period.
Quote from Dirshaun -Intelligent discourse with someone who has intellect is is far more gratifying then nearly any other pursuit. I enjoy the debate, even if I lose. In this case I really can't lose because I learn more about the game. |
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CompleteShift
(Shitbag)
Posts : 5072
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RE: Merc v BM v Zerker |
11/19/06 5:36 PM |
I'd like to see some proof (ie. logs) about AF affecting hit rate pls >_>.
Also some proof (ie. vid) that it's possible for a Merc to Flank to make it so that your target will "never run away from you". Mathematics is nice and all, but with circlestrafing and /face, it's very difficult to keep a target snared. It's much easier with 300 degrees (sides and back) of snare potential versus 240 degrees (two sides).
"If the target DOES survive the stun, though, the stun immunity means that the BM is now using a decent but not great rear style to stop the runner."
At least he has a hindering rear style?
"As logical as your arguement is, and as good as your templates are, I just don't believe that it's as black and white as you claim."
Specific to 8v8 Mercenaries, GoV is a terrible piece of armour. Soloers use it for the AF proc, casters use it under the premise of prekiting, str/dex users use it under the premise of there being nothing better.
Eirene's > GoV for 8v8 Mercenaries. Regardless of what you've seen in templates, the proc is terrible and the utility is subpar.
EDIT: Did a little more poking around, and the 10% normal weapon/5% CW/Artifact weapon miss rate is for PvE against equal level mobs >_>. I'd like to see if this is consistent with PvP, and if it is, how it is =\. |
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doeridid
(Registered)
Posts : 9285
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RE: Merc v BM v Zerker |
11/19/06 8:41 PM |
From your character's perspective (meaning, what YOUR character's stats do), PvE and PvE are the same thing. Sort of...
The "zero" monster is assumed to have some "normal" AF. The 5% and 10% base miss-rates are based on this (the test mobs outside the capitals on Pend are perfect for this testing).
Since monsters don't have an actual "AF" their chance to be hit is just based on their level.
On opponent players, their AF changes their "effective level" as far as your chance to hit goes.
In either case, there is a hit/miss roll and a breaking point on that roll. Above the break and you hit, below the break and you miss.
Once a miss has been confirmed, an additional roll is made to see if you fumble, but that only matters once you've missed.
Now, we don't know (or at least I've never seen reference to) what the precise "zero monster" AF is. But based on the 5% and 10% rules, a caster's AF is way below that and a chain/scale wearer is above it. Spec AF buffed plate... Yeah, hard to hit.
Quote from Dirshaun -Intelligent discourse with someone who has intellect is is far more gratifying then nearly any other pursuit. I enjoy the debate, even if I lose. In this case I really can't lose because I learn more about the game. |
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Artwork and screen shots Copyright © 2001-2003 Mythic Entertainment, Inc. All rights reserved. Used with permission of Mythic Entertainment.
Mythic Entertainment, the Mythic Entertainment logo, "Dark Age of Camelot," "Shrouded Isles," the Dark Age of Camelot and Shrouded Isles logos, and the stylized Celtic knot are trademarks of Mythic Entertainment, Inc.
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