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Speccing and you -- A post for ALL melee classes (but mostly you, Mr SB)
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wyrd77
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Date Posted:
11/15/04 4:07pm
Subject:
Speccing and you -- A post for ALL melee classes (but mostly you, Mr SB)
- Date Edited:
11/24/04 7:39am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
kerika1
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Locked for size feel free to reopen a new thread.
Hello all,
Some of you know who I am, and others may not. Im the person who did all of the initial testing for styled damage, and all those growth rates you see came from my tests. Im not bragging here, Im just trying to establish a bit of credibility before the storm.
Now to the meat of it...
-------------------------------------------------------
Damage Variance and Average Damage done caps at 51 Composite Spec.
[Sidenote: Composite Spec is Spec + Bonus (e.g. 39+11 = 50 Composite Spec)
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What does this mean?
Well lets break it down a bit.
There are a few components to damage output:
1) Damage Variance
2) Average Damage
3) Modifiers -
3a) 2Handbonus = (10 + Spec/2)%
3b) LA Penalty = (62.5 + Spec * 0.34)%
3c) DW Chance = (25 + Spec * 0.68)%
4) Style Damage - Style DPS = Spec * Growth Rate
The first two components to damage will not increase in any way once you reach a composite spec of 51. All included in (3) and (4) will increase with spec over 51.
-------------------------------------------------------
This begs the question, "Why Spec over 50?"
There are a few reasons, but the all fit into two categories:
1) Better Modifiers - If you are 2Handed, DWing or using LA, then speccing higher in the line that gives that bonus will allow you to do more damage
2) Styles - If you USE THE STYLES in a spec line, by speccing higher, you will get access to more styles in addition to increasing the Style DPS every style in that line outputs.
-------------------------------------------------------
So how does this affect you, Mr SB?
To put it as short as possible, high Axe spec is a waste.
Lets look at this simply:
If youre a SB, you should only be using your CS styles (or possibly Frosty Gaze if you want the stun, but I wouldnt reccomend it because of the lesser damage). Your Axe/Sword styles will never match the damage output of the CS line since CS styles have higher growth rates.
However, its been a common misconstrued concept that high Axe spec was necessary for keeping average damage high. This has caused for many specs with 39 or 44 Axe... and all of those spec points are simply wasted.
Now, since Axe spec is a waste, put those points somewhere useful, CS or LA, and your damage output will increase.
-------------------------------------------------------
Questions:
1) What about offhand variance?
Its a Myth. Sorry!
2) Doesnt Spec affect WeapSkill, and doesnt WeapSkill affect Evade rate?
While this is true, all testing thus far is showing that spec over 50 has little to nothing to do with your chance to be evaded. Actually, testing has shown that Spec actually has very little to do with being evaded at all. The large differences you see in evade chance vs WeapSkill come from the differences in attributes. Not spec
3) You're Wrong! I dont believe you!
Well, first off thats not a question ;-D, but thats besides the point. Here are the logs of my data sets:
http://www.classesofcamelot.com/other/styles/50mob12+17Evade.txt
http://www.classesofcamelot.com/other/styles/50mob34+17Evade.txt
http://www.classesofcamelot.com/other/styles/50mob50+17Evade.txt
http://www.classesofcamelot.com/other/styles/50mob39+13AxeLA.txt
http://www.classesofcamelot.com/other/styles/50mob50+13AxeLA.txt
Here is a summary of the data:
http://www.classesofcamelot.com/other/styles/WeapSpecTests.xls
4) What is the optimal spec for a SB?
Well, that really is up to the player. It depends on a couple things... How much do you value envenom? How much do you value FG? How often are you styling vs fighting nonstyled?
For me, the optimal spec would be:
34 Axe/LA
44 CS
34 Stealth
30 Envenom
As a SB gets RR over RR7, then I would reduce Axe and Stealth Spec while increasing CS spec to 50. Any points left over in the end would go into LA.
[Sidenote: The effects CS has while styling outweigh the benefits of speccing higher in LA]
5) Infs are overpowered! A^&t f&^k 2.5x Spec Wah!
Again, thats not a question! ^_^
Still, if you look at this objectively, what does this mean for the infiltrator? Well, since an Inf wants DF, they have to spec to 50 in Thrust to get it. By speccing to 50 in Thrust, they gain NO MORE AVERAGE DAMAGE OUTPUT. In addition, the ONLY style which an Inf uses from Thrust spec is DF, and its damage is still less than that of the Hamstring chain... so basically, what does an Inf gain from 2.5x Spec? A 5 second evade based stun... thats really about it. Now, a Slash-Inf might want to look into speccing lower into Slashing spec and increasing their DW spec, but Slashing Infs have lower Str than Norse SB's, so they will have a rough time competing... granted, some people love that slash inf, but just remember, Amethyst Slash is weaker than the Garrotte / Achilles Heel chain and doesnt have the side effects... plus if you spec low in Slash, you wont have the spec for high Style DPS.
-------------------------------------------------------
Ok, so now that we have gone over all of this...
Ask away, any questions/comments/concerns
Just please, keep it civil, and if your post is just "Wyrd is a momo", well, its true, but please dont post it here.
Ill do my best to keep up on responses, but if I dont get to yours, my apologies.
W
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Mindmelder
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Date Posted:
11/15/04 4:30pm
Subject:
RE: Speccing and you -- A post for ALL melee classes (but mostly you, Mr SB)
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Awesome research, tag for later. =)
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Zashea
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Date Posted:
11/15/04 4:40pm
Subject:
RE: Speccing and you -- A post for ALL melee classes (but mostly you, Mr SB)
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"Actually, testing has shown that Spec actually has very little to do with being evaded at all. The large differences you see in evade chance vs WeapSkill come from the differences in attributes. Not spec "
If this were not true, wouldn't all SBs be running around with a staff and using CS styles? Since your weapon spec affects WS which affects enemy evade.
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wyrd77
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Date Posted:
11/15/04 4:44pm
Subject:
RE: Speccing and you -- A post for ALL melee classes (but mostly you, Mr SB)
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Zashea,
There is a HUGE difference in 1 composite spec and 50 composite spec. Staff is a 1 composite spec since its not-spec'able... actually, its probably less since 2H bonus for Shaman is only +5% whereas a 1 Spec in Sword for a SB would be +10%.
But I did forget to put in my disclaimer.
*** Disclaimer ***
If you think Im wrong, its all good. Just feel free to PROVE me wrong with tests. No, not logs or SS's... tests. I spent the past couple weeks putting my data together for everyone. The least you can do is take a day or two to put together yours.
*** End Disclaimer ***
Thank you,
W
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Qisa
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Date Posted:
11/15/04 4:45pm
Subject:
RE: Speccing and you -- A post for ALL melee classes (but mostly you, Mr SB)
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Weaponskill doesn't effect enemy evade (or block/parry) but it does effect how often you miss. A staff SB would flat-out miss a lot.
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Qisuunh (Undead Priestess - Level 38 - Lightbringer)
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wyrd77
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Date Posted:
11/15/04 4:55pm
Subject:
RE: Speccing and you -- A post for ALL melee classes (but mostly you, Mr SB)
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Hit/Miss is not affected by WeapSkill
W
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Qisa
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Date Posted:
11/15/04 5:01pm
Subject:
RE: Speccing and you -- A post for ALL melee classes (but mostly you, Mr SB)
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Hrm? I'll take your word for it, but that was a long-held belief of mine.
So WeapSkill only affects damage?
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Zyzyg
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Date Posted:
11/15/04 5:04pm
Subject:
RE: Speccing and you -- A post for ALL melee classes (but mostly you, Mr SB)
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Much of that looks like what I've come up with wasting respec stones and piles of plat on new armor and weapons through the years.
I've pretty much come to realize as a Shadowblade that High Crit Strike and Crit Strike styles are the key to dealing the most damage in the shortest time.
My spec I ended up with is:
38 Sword
44 Crit
29 Left Axe
31 Envenom
34 Stealth
+16 to all
and I seem to do better damage than I used to. I really don't miss the Frosty Gaze stun and I do enjoy the high style damage that Hamstring/Leaper kick out.
I'm still fuzzy though on the effects of High STR and weaponskill. Strength increases weaponskill, but it affects neither damage or evades, then what's the point. Where does this variable figure in?
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wyrd77
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Date Posted:
11/15/04 5:05pm
Subject:
RE: Speccing and you -- A post for ALL melee classes (but mostly you, Mr SB)
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WeapSkill affects Average Damage and the chance to get past passive defenses.
The affect that Spec (ergo WeapSkill) has on Passive Defenses is minimal.
W
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wyrd77
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Date Posted:
11/15/04 5:09pm
Subject:
RE: Speccing and you -- A post for ALL melee classes (but mostly you, Mr SB)
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Strenght absolutely affects damage and chance to be evaded/parried/blocked.
The test data and results given here are ONLY on the topic of Spec.
W
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Dabokel2
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Date Posted:
11/15/04 5:10pm
Subject:
RE: Speccing and you -- A post for ALL melee classes (but mostly you, Mr SB)
- Date Edited:
11/15/04 5:12pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Dabokel2
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"For me, the optimal spec would be:
34 Axe/LA
44 CS
34 Stealth
30 Envenom "
So you are saying
1. who needs a stun? I'll simply outdamage my opponents with CS growth rates?
2. who needs greater enverate until RR7? who needs lifebane until RR10?
3. Speccing higher in a weapon for the offchance that you might be debuffed and your weaponskill drops through the floor is not needed...
granted, I'm not going to spend days on coming up with "tests" which prove or disprove what I "know" to be true. I've done my share of testing when I actually gave a shit about my class.
You want to prove to me that all this testing is correct, take the time to roll a shadowblade, level him to 50, grab all the "must have" equipment and play him past RR5. Then come and tell me that you were right.
Until then, I say good day sir, thank you for the entertaining read.
~Dabo
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wyrd77
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Date Posted:
11/15/04 5:25pm
Subject:
RE: Speccing and you -- A post for ALL melee classes (but mostly you, Mr SB)
- Date Edited:
11/15/04 5:27pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
wyrd77
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Dabokel,
Congratulations on quoting out of context, you missed the line right above that one...
"Well, that really is up to the player. It depends on a couple things... How much do you value envenom? How much do you value FG? How often are you styling vs fighting nonstyled?"
Please, at least quoting whole sections. I have even broke the post down for you.
W
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Glandelf
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Date Posted:
11/15/04 5:27pm
Subject:
RE: Speccing and you -- A post for ALL melee classes (but mostly you, Mr SB)
- Date Edited:
11/15/04 5:28pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Glandelf
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Hm...
Enemy evade rate aside.. doesn't weaponskill affects ur ability to reach cap damage (hence weaponskill/enemy af+absorb)?
Here is a SS of mine (<= french player)
http://img84.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img84&image=sshot045.jpg
What does it shows?
Here we have a standing lvl 49 ranger eating snowsquall and icy brilliance chain.
Basic translation :
You perform your Snowsquall perfectly (+207)
You're hitting Teramor with ur Battler for 325(-184)
11 pts add dmg (shaman)
Teramor hits me for 2 damage (dmg shield?)
You're hitting Teramor with ur Pyroclasmic War Axe for 113(-38)
8 pts add dmg (shaman)
Shade of Mysts proc
Teramor hits me for 2 damage (dmg shield?)
---------------------------------------
You prepare to perform ur Icy brilliance
Lamashtu attacks me with his Stiletto
Lamashtu hits me for 451 damage
Constricting bounds surounds my body (snare)
Lamashtu attacks me with his Broken dagger
Lamashtu hits me for 110 damage
Ur str has decreased
Ur constitution has decreased
Ur hit points have decreased
Ur feeling weaker
Ur bleeding
Lamashtu hits me for 6 dmg (bleed)
-------------------------------------------
You perform ur Icy brilliance perfectly (+75)
You're hitting Teramor with ur Battler for 109(-61) dmg
A barrier absorbs 109 dmg points of ur attack (SoM)
15 pts add dmg
Teramor hits me for 2 damage (dmg shield)
You're hitting Teramor with ur Pyroclasmic War Axe for 47(-16) dmg
A barrier absorbs 47 dmg points of ur attack (still SoM)
blablabla
2 importants things :
- Lamashtu is a rr7+ nightshade and he PA+enervates me
- His enervating poison crits up (still in old Frontiers, NS have access to the RA allowing that) and manage to eat about 600 wpskill (I go from roughly 1600 to 1040).
What I find particularly interesting in that SS is that after being crit enervated, and losing 600 wpskill, my dmg output while using a style with higher growth rate than the last one (icy>snowsquall) is basically cut in 3.
And I repeat, the target wasn't sitting at all (he's attacking me).
Any comment ?
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Qisa
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Date Posted:
11/15/04 5:40pm
Subject:
RE: Speccing and you -- A post for ALL melee classes (but mostly you, Mr SB)
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If I understand this right, then for a hunter:
Spear - Only reason to go over 51 modified spec is for 2H bonus and that's only .5% per point over 51. So if you have spec+items+RR > 51, you can free up some space on your SC suit by removing +Spear until you get down to 51 and only give up some 2H bonus.
Bow - No reason AT ALL to go over 51 modified spec (unless bows get the 2H bonus).
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Qisa (Blood Elf Huntress - Level 70 - Lightbringer)
Qisuunh (Undead Priestess - Level 38 - Lightbringer)
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wyrd77
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Date Posted:
11/15/04 5:41pm
Subject:
RE: Speccing and you -- A post for ALL melee classes (but mostly you, Mr SB)
- Date Edited:
11/15/04 5:43pm (2 edits total)
Edited By:
wyrd77
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WeapSkill is made up of two components:
1) Spec
2) Attributes
Im talking about Spec here, not attributes. The poison reduced your Str, thereby reducing your WeapSkill and damage. The affects of Spec on WeapSkill cap at 51 composite spec. Enervating poison has no affect on your spec, and therefore it has nothing to do with the test here or the results.
Qisa,
Yes and no...
While spec higher than 51 will not affect a Hunter's average damage or chance to get past evade, it will still affect style damage.
And Bows DO get 2Hand bonus
W
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Qisa
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Date Posted:
11/15/04 5:43pm
Subject:
RE: Speccing and you -- A post for ALL melee classes (but mostly you, Mr SB)
- Date Edited:
11/15/04 5:45pm (2 edits total)
Edited By:
Qisa
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So you're saying that WeapSkill doesn't go up with modified spec past 51? Any increases are due solely to stat increases?
Sorry if I'm being obtuse, I just want to make sure I have all this straight in my head. 
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