The Drunken Friar

I'm back playing again, and I was looking to get a finished spec on my Paladin at 50 as below. He is double-autotrained (which is a pain in the ass to get to, let me assure you), and will soon be my main.

50 2 handed
49 Chants (pretty intent on this for the +20 vs Matter)
34 Slash
8 Parry

I was intending to change to this spec at RR5
50 2 handed
49 Chants
30 Slash
16 Parry
8 Shield.

Wondering if I shouldn't take shield to begin with and have 8 so I at least get engage instead of parry? I am not too concerned with raising parry or having much of it in my template.

Just wondering what you all would do with 154 extra points when making a 2 handed slash Paladin...

...not put it in any chants above 46

Personally, I never really found myself wanting a shield, I rely on 900+ AF and awake clerics, and not standing in LOS for archers to hit me. I kinda like Parry in a freaky masocistic fashion, as it's kept me up against enemy tanks and guards. It's actually better than a shield against DWers. heh.

STFU U FOTM B-I-T-C-H TL!

You're just jealous that I get all the ladies, and Chris.

hehe.... you can have chris

"Personally, I never really found myself wanting a shield"

BULL EFFIN SHITZU!

I haven't, I really only miss my shield for PvE. Beyond that I'm quite happy having 3+4 shield

Thats not what you said a year ago

Sigh, don't include me in your homosexual fantasies, you two.

for RR5 you should get:

50 2h
46 chant
35 slash (35 + 11 + 4 = 50 -> Caped 2h damage)
7 shield (only if you want)
x parry

if you gain a higher rr respec slash to 34 and spend the points within parry. go on like this until you hit rr12

If I wanted, I could go like this...

50 2 handed
46 chants
39 slash
0 Parry

Useful? Would allow me to have no varience from the get-go and be maximising damage,

EDIT: And, as I gain RR's, I can always respec downwards in slash to allow me to pump up parry as I go along.

Or, alternatively, I could go for my original desired spec of 50 slash, 43 chant, 42 shield, 4 parry And see how I go as an offensive specced Paladin that way...

Opinions?

You guys are just jealous cuz Greggar's been chatting with babes online all day.

50 slash is fun, and you hit considerably harder than 36 slashers.. BUT don't expect it to be 2-H

Anyways, you all know chris is my bish...

51 composite is max damage.
So at rr5 you need 36 slash in order to cap damage difference (with +11 from gear, +4 from RA)

Parry is damn nice for 2h for PVE, but it also is useful in RVR, just far as in PVE:-)

Even though I don't play my pally anymore, but a minstrel:-)
My pally have moparry 3. With 12+11+ra parry = holding battler at highest level with parry only:-) (I still need 2 clerics constantly on me, as most s/s though:-) But, in 1 vs 1 against a dual wielder, I tell you, they don't hit me very much, and gets rather frustrated:-)

My advice, either spec 43 chants or 46 chants. Never below 42 chants for a 2h pally..2h styles eats end for breakfast..then wants more. But it hits like a truck in RVR AND PVE:-)

Good luck

50 not 51. at least that's what i had seen within my log files ~1 year ago for 2h damage. also i have allready ask Wyrd77 if he is sure about 51 and the answer was he has not tested if there is a difference between 50 and 51. my logfiles didn't show any diffenzes.

The difference between 50 and 51 will be nearly impossible to notice if it even exists, and unless you do thousands of attacks your statistical variance will be higher than the difference thus invalidating your results.

50 2H
48 chants
31 slash
8 parry

Can't live without those 20% heat/cold resists

I've decided to go with the following;

50 2 Handed
49 Chants (for max resists across the board)
34 Slash (for good damage varience)
7 shield (for lovely engage)
5 parry
0 points left over

As I gain RR's past RR6, I will drop down slash and up my parry. Until then, I am fine with only 5 parry. While it has its uses in PvE, I won't really be using my Paladin to go farm stuff with. I'll leave that up to my Cleric

the difference is very easy to see. we know:

1h spec = base damage
2h spec = damage variance



so if 51 slash would increase something you would get:


so now start hitting something with 50 slash, log all swings an note the highest damage you have done

do the same thing with 51 slash spec and also note the highest damage you have done

and just 4 fun also do this with 49 slash

in the end you will see:

49 has a lesser max damage then 50 and 51 slash
50 and 51 slash are exactly the same

-> composite spec of 50 will cap your damage, thats what i got when i tested this out for 2h over a year ago.

EDIT:

you can also double check if you look at the lowest damage you have done

Not entirely correct.

1-hand spec is indeed base damage, but so is 2-hand spec because it increases WS and thus average damage, and the 2-hand spec modifier that increases average damage by 0.5% per point. Variance is constant, I don't know where the idea that variance actually changes came from, but variance is constant with regards to most situations. Situations where you're hitting close to your cap, you'll notice shifts in variance as you change variables because your damage is artifically capped.

And you'd still have to do thousands of swings, it's entirely possible for you to never actually land a hit for your minimum damage, thus you can conclude wrongly if your lowest swing with 51 spec was say 510. Changes in a variable of 2% wont necessarily propagate into a change of the same order, a change of 2% could mean a change in output of 0.5% or smaller, or larger. Generally it's pretty hard to tie down numbers for a shift that small, you'd have to take enough samples to make the statistical variance in your data significantly smaller than that number, something like 10 times smaller. So you're looking to nail down your damage to within 0.2%, that's pretty hard without a huge huge number of swings and then other factors like armour/weapon con loss start creeping in.

For the sake of sanity, I'd just assume it's 50 as that's a nice round number

I have much envy for your autotrained paladin I would still have 49 chants if I could, but I had to drop it down when I went from shield to 2hand. Rarely have friars. I wouldn't worry about engage until higher RR, unless you solo a lot.

For me, having the option of twisting in resists >> parry in RvR (unless you mainly solo)

The above concept of damage is wrong.

1 slash 50 2h = 1 to 500 damage
25 slash 50 2h = 1 to 500 damage
50 slash 50 2h = 1 to 500 damage

The example test results that you provided might show the damage you did on a target during a series of hits. That is the improper way to test though for maximum damage from a style.

For years people have done this to test styles. They go up to a mob and start spamming different styles to see the damage comparison. But they don't understand is that minimum damage isn't static and it depends upon the af/con of the mob or af of the live target to predict the random effect it has against the attackers basedamage/str/weaponskill.

The maximum damage you can do in one hit is calculated by...

Maximum base damage of weapon + Style growth rate * Reduced by your swing speed + TOA % style damage bonus.

The minimum damage you can do is always.... 1

How do you hit for over 1? These factors....

1. Your opponents AF
2. Your opponents abs
3. Your strength
4. % toa melee damage
5. Relics



Respec on pendragon to 50 2h and have 49 effective slash skill.

Go kill a grey wolf near cotswald.

Respec on pendragon to 50 2h and have 51 effective slash skill.

Go kill another grey wolf near cotswald.

Your maximum damage will not change at all.

If you say ,"but, your hitting a grey of course you'll do the same amount of damage!"

Well, your telling us in a random series of hits you proved that there is a bonus at effective level 51 skill in slash is "the key". Then I can prove my theory that with 1 slash I hit a cleric for 478, 425, 467 and 482 four times when my maximum damage was 550 and there is no reason to spec higher than 1 slash.

Disclaimer!

I had 90 other hits that fell below 130.

That log was from my test results when I disproved that there is no effect over effective 50 in a base damage. Believe me, I tried to prove there was a bonus for going over effective 50 in your base damage. I was specced 44 2h and 40 slash for a long time and thought that was the reason I was hitting consistently hard.

I found out why the community was having problems. They were idiots and using the horribly wrong styles which resulted on lower average damage.

2h Paladins of the new generation seem to be much better off than 2.5 years ago.

Greggar i know that 2h increases WS and 2h weapon bonus (0.5% per spec point)

the point i wanted to note with:



1h spec is more or like a + damage bonus for you 2h damage. variance, ws, 2h bonus and so on belongs to the 2h spec. so if you gain a higher 1h spec (up to your level) then you would get a higher cap damage and a higher min damage (thats what i call base damage, it inceases both min and max damage)

and there is some kind of damage variance ( but this is also caped at a composite spec of 50 2h ) which hase been shown by Wyrd77.

btw the same damage variance you get if you use a lvl 10 baseline cast with only a spec of 5 -> you have damage variance, if you get a composite spec of 10 you will no longer have a damage variance. the same thing for melee weapons. but we allways have a build in variance, a caster will nuke for 250 damage all the time, a tank will once do 250 damage next hit may be 240, 260, 245 and so on this is a damage variance that you will ever have when you use a melee weapon. so we got one variance that is build in for all melee damage and one that is based on the composite spec of 50 within so i am not realy wrong with my notes

and well sure its still not a thing of "10 swings -> get result". but if you log lets say 100 swings with 49 slash, 50 slash and 51 slash. then take the highest damage hit of each. then you will get something like 400, 405 and 405 ( just an example ) ( and surly you have to be sure you do not hit you cap damage ) if you get such a result its clear that 51 composite spec isn't doing anything. even if your highest hit with 51 composite would be 406 damage you would have shown that it dosn't do anything, because that 1 point is called statistical variance.


@Romao the concept is not wrong.

you are right if i hit a high level mob i will do with all specs just 1 damage, and if i hit a lvl 0 mob i will do with all specs cap damage. but i never talked about cap damage or even about hitting a lvl 80+ mob with high af and so on

i talked about hitting a lvl 50 player, and hitting him NOT for cap damage. and then, this concept is right and doing so is the only way to make sure if 50 or 51 composite spec is the cap. if you hit for cap damage you can show nothing (only how high your cap damage is ^^ but not if there is a difference between composite spec of 50 and 51 )



thx but i allready know btw you miss things like 2h bonus, weapon base speed



you may also hit for 0 damage



and then you get a damage range, a min and a max damage against your target. and if you make sure you do not hit your cap damage you will get something like



so the concept is right



and again i never talked about CAP damage. i allways talked about max damage against a target where you do not hit for cap damage



again ... cap damage != max damage

lets say you hit a level 50 kleri ( not for cap damage ... ) with 1 slash you will have a much lower max and min damage, then if you hit him with 50 slash (both times 50 2h)

got it?

and sorry i am German so i have some problems writing English

Keiferhub, I don't know if its in the translation but you still don't understand that although your concept works its still flawed.

First of all, I don't like people pointing or trying to prove I missed something when its in the damn formula....



Its by your swing speed, not your weapon base speed. Your weapons base speed usually has a factor on the weapons base damage (unstyled maximum damage). So if I missed something, please go on.

From the last time I checked which was around the release of the game %bonus on weapons only improved your chance to hit. Call me wrong, but that was in the prima guide when it first released. Don't know how that effects damage unless you were counting misses in your damage per swing.



Again with the ranges... more people need to be on dry ice imo...

Test 01 slash and add up all the damage then divid that by the amount of hits you actually landed. Lets say its...

01 Slash - 50 2h = 250 Average damage
25 Slash - 50 2h = 325 Average damage
50 Slash - 50 2h = 375 Average damage

You can't calculate damage by ranges.

Just calculate by your average damage, if you calculate by ranges your wasting your time. Because you could have 90 hits between 300 - 400, but your going to get one 490 hit and one 120 hit.

So is your range 300-400 or is it 120 to 490?



Like I said, out of a series of 100 hits you are going to get an unbelievably low one and an unbelievably high one.

Like I said, your damage is always 1 to your max damage.

There is always a chance you can hit your damage cap when hitting a target just as it is possible to hit for 1 damage. However the probability of you doing it is 1 and a million.

But it doesn't rule out that you wont hit 10 points below your cap, which is probably 1-10000 against an equally buffed well armored nuetral target.

WOULD YOU LIKE TO KNOW WHY 2H RAISES YOUR VARIANCE?

First of all it doesn't. It raises your average damage.

If your damage cap is 778 and lets just say we have a target which you after 100 attacks hit for 389 damage.

Well if you say increase your style damage by adding +'s into 2h and get %style bonus and your damage cap goes up to 800. You'll probably hit that same target for 400 damage on average.

Did it raise your variance? what was the variance....

389/778= .50 or 50%
400/800= .50 or 50%

Your variance stayed the same... it was your average damage that increased.



You ALWAYS even if its the most unbelievable chance in the world can hit cap damage against any target in RvR.

I hit a RR9 druid fully SC'd 9 months ago for 778 damage (my damage cap with onslaught) while I was specced 2h crush. It was a fluke, and my follow up style hit for 460 but it can happen.



Seriously mate, wtf does that mean?



Apparently I don't get whatever your teaching in Germany. Neither did my guildmaster who was a RR10 Armsman, but I think some people just think ,"I'll try a swing with it, if it works good I'll use it".

One swing, hell 100 swings wont make me feel right when I'm calculating damage data with a 200 point margin of error.

i try to explane it again

damage variance for cast damage:

a caster who uses a lvl 50 baseline nuke needs to have at least a composite spec of 50 to have no damage variance if i casts onto a target. you see this within rvr if he nukes you for 300 300 300 300 damage all the time, if he does a critical hit he will hit you harder for sure but his cast damage without critical will allways be the same for the given target. ( if he nukes someone else with other resistenz and so on he will have another damage output but this will also be constant for example he will hit your friend for 320 320 320 all the time )

if the same caster only got a composite spec of 30. he will no longer hit you for 300 all the time, then his damage starts to variance. he will hit you for 250 300 280 270 300 250 and so on.


melee damage variance

for melee weapons this variance is the same as for casting damage. and this variance is caped at: spec = your level

so if you are a level 50 2h tank and you get 50 composite spec within 2h you will have no variance.

but mythic wasn't happy with this: "a tank is doing allways the same damage against the same opponent" so they build in another damage variance.

and this build in damage variance is not cap able, it will never chance, even if you have 71 2h you will have the same build in damage variance then with 50 2h or with only 1 point within 2h.

and this build in damage variance will let you hit your opponent for a damage range. for example you would hit playerx for 400 damage (lets call this damage without variance "normal damage") all the time ( like a caster will nuke him for 300 damage all the time ) but then this build in variance hits you and you will once hit him for 350 and once you hit him for 450 damage.

the min damage of this damage range is something like: "normal damage" * 0.80
and the max damage of this damage range is something like: "normal damage" * 1.20

all the hits you do against this playerx will be within this damage range.

you only have a chance to hit your cap damage if "normal damage" * 1.20 >= your cap damage. ( = you only can hit your cap if the cap damage is within the damage range )

NOTE: the factors of 0.8 and 1.20 are examples! not numbers to run math with.

the question if 50 or 51 composite spec

to prove this you can do different things now. you can look at the average damage (btw you can also call "average damage" = "normal damage") and / or you can look at the damage range. both will work and both will show you that the composite spec of 50 is enough


i hope now you do not disagree with me and one last thing romao. you do not have the chance to hit every target for cap damage. if the cap damage is within your damage range you will be able to hit for cap damage, if it is not within the range you will not be able to hit for cap damage. same for hiting for 1 damage, you will only hit him for 1 damage if 1 damage is within your damage range.

or do you realy want to tell me that you ever hit a enemy player for cap damage and within the next hit you do 1 damage? ( without debuffs, ras, mls and so on) i have never seen anything like this and im r9l8 atm

Man you people make my head hurt

Casters do not have to deal with AF. Their bolts do, and if they are attacking a target with effective af (af w/ abs factored in) their bolt damage will be random.

Casted DD's do not suffer AF reduction. Thus your variance would depend upon the casters level vs the targets level then factor in the actual spec level of the dd.

My 50 theurg who was 48 earth 24+13 ice. I had an effective cold magic of 37. My dd's always hit fairly consistent with a small margin of variance once every 5 dd's my damage would drop about 5 points of damage. Now if AF effected casted damage it probably would have been irratic.



You're taking Dark Age of Camelot's combat system and trying to prove things using "spontaneous generation".

Spontaneous Generation was the belief that rats spawned from rags, flies from spoiled meat and frogs from the mud.

You can hit your cap if when you swing...

These factors:

1. Your strength
2. Your base damage skill and Two hand skill
3. Style growth rate

Outweigh:

1. Your opponents AF
2. Its resistances
3. Its abs

However I tell you, you'll rarely hit your cap while hasted. Most people don't know their damage cap when they see it because their damage cap changes depending on the haste applied on them RvR.

If you can provide logs and tests proving your theories, I'd like to see them.

I've listened to countless amounts of testers and in my 2 years experience being a tester I've never come across someone that has reinvented the daoc combat system as you have.

Mythic has never stated nor addressed "Normal" damage issues.

Its because its a bunch of crock.

Mythic however does look at DPS (damage per second).

Your average divided by your swing speed. They do not calculate ranges of minimum and maximum damage. If they found you were swinging for your damage cap at your 1.5s swing cap against high effective af targets... your looking to get nerfed.

But they don't calculate that by minimum and max ranges, they take damage per second logs from charactors and make sure they are "in tune" with the other realms classes.

Read This

I know your a RR9 Paladin, but I've met many people who made RR9 without ever touching a spellcraft calculator nor have any concept of the game other than "2" was the boom boom button.



What I'm saying is its not impossible, its... improbable that you ever will in your lifetime.

You could honestly fix a graph up with... "Most probable" ranges...

But you can only get it so accurate and its only against one target.

Your saying ,"I have a 90% chance I'll fall between the 300-400 range"

What is the point of that?

Why not just say ,"on average I hit for 350 vs a level 50/chain/612 af target with 26% resists"

Why have I jumped down your back? Because your way is honestly pointless, theres no bonus in calculating a floating range around your average damage.

While this is the way YOU might like to calculate your damage, I'm saying what your doing and your explainations of why your doing it is utter crock.

If you throw min/max damage tests at a mythic developer hes going to say ,"WTF?"

and..... YOU never explained why you needed an effective 51 skill level in your base damage

Useless mofo I swear...

You post a ""90% within a range" because it is STATISICALLY more accurate to say that than an average.

HOWEVER,

It is difficult to compare two seperate tests (with different parameters) using a bell curve

The irony is both of you are correct in your descriptions and are argueing about the presentation of the data.

1. Yes you can have a 1 damage hit followed by a cap hit (statisically possible even if the chance to do so is near infinity...as they say "In an infinate universe all things are possible".)

2. When you compare differing tests, using a range of values within two standard deviations is NOT a good comparison. If anything you should compare the AVERAGES and the STD DEV. This will show you
A. If the average damage is higher
B. IF the variances due to differing skill levels is greater.

IE> LVL 50Effective has an avg damage of 1000 +/-100
LVL 40 Effective has an avg damage of 900 +/-250

NOW THAT IS USEFUL INFORMATION.

Romao someday you will understand the game, someday...

dosn't make sence to explane it again and a again go and hit you bb and enable you chatlog. hit him over and over again and look if you hit him within a damage range or if you hit him once for cap damage and once for 1 damage...

go to the dragon hit him and show me a sceen where you hit him for cap damage ...

or try to hit a lvl 0 mob for just 1 damage with your lvl 50 2h tank -.-

i have never ever hit a lvl 50 player for just 1 damage, its because it is impossible to do so ( dont look at ras mls and so on of course ). you hit him within a given damage range based on your ws, swingspeed and so on.

you will surely understand this oneday... surely

and btw if your threug is already casting for overcap damage and is caped down to his cap damage you will not see a huge damage variance. that happens if you have power relics. if you do not have them you will see a damage variance if you have only 37 effectiv cold spec. just look it up try it out and then maybe you will understand ...

btw read this if you wanna know why 50 / 51 effectiv spec http://vnboards.ign.com/Midgard_Rogue_P ... 99461/?116

Nobody fucking cares about this formula or that formula.

Take you geek language and shove it up your ass for all I care.

The point is, at RR5, you're technically level 51. Get 51 composite base spec, and stfu.

And who cares if the cap IS 50, it doesn't matter. It's 1 point.

Your melee damage will always vary all over the place, we're not casters.

Seriously, stop with the techno babble! It's old and played.