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Topic:
Hunter vs. Infiltrator test logs
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Branin
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Date Posted:
9/10/03 5:00pm
Subject:
Hunter vs. Infiltrator test logs
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Original logs can be found here
Test participants:
Branin - Level 50 Norseman Hunter - Realm Rank 7L4
39+17 Spear
45+17 Composite Bow
35+7 Beastcraft
32+12 Stealth
1263 Hit points
1054 WeapSkill
29% slash (w/ armor vulnerabilities, this is 22% slash)
22% body
Atkus - Level 50 Saracen Infiltrator - Realm Rank 2L4
50+12 Slash
20+11 Dual Wield
40+12 Critical Strike
37+12 Stealth
37+12 Envenom
1198 Hit points
937 weapSKill (w/ 3 melee relics, this is 1124 WeapSkill)
11% thrust (with armor bonus, this is 20% thrust)
Aug Qui I
Mastery of Pain I
Dualist Reflexes I
Notes:
I deliberately chose a test subject who was the worst configured Infiltrator that I could find. Many things have gone wrong for this Infiltrator:
- Low WeapSkill (cancelled out due to melee relics on Pendragon)
- No Dragonfang (Slash spec)
- No level 50 poison
- Lower resists
- Hunter artifically had time to buff pet, which is rarely the case while attacking an assassin from surprise (i.e. True Sight)
- Three full bow shots on the assassin (realistically, an assassin can choose to move out of range, restealth, and reattack if caught at the very edge of bow range. In this case, the Infiltrator artifically continued to press the attack).
Test procedure:
1. Both participants were not rez sick.
2. Hunter self-buffs (DEX/QUI and AF)
3. Hunter summons and self-buffs pet.
4. Infiltrator only used 2 poisons and did not use the common tactic of swapping out for fresh/new poisons.
5. Hunter fired three arrows at Infiltrator while Infiltrator charged Hunter.
6. Hunter and Infiltrator melee'd each other until one participant died (Hunter styles: Lancer -> Lunging Thrust, Infiltrator styles: Garrote, Hamstring, Amethyst Slash -> Diamond Slash).
Summary:
Out of 12 test runs, the Infiltrator won 8 times, while the Hunter won 4 times. In theory, this should be the most friendly situation to the Hunter given how many disadvantages the Infiltrator suffers from in the above notes. However, despite the artificial advantage of three full bow shots, the Hunter still managed to obtain a 33.3% victory rate under the most optimal conditions.
The reasons for this are simple: The Hunter rate at which a Hunter deals damage to the assassin is too slow compared to how the assassin does damage to the Hunter. This is due to the fact Hunter dmg output is virtually halved by the assassin evade rate. Because both classes have similar hit point amounts, the only way to compensate for this is to either reduce the assassin evade rate, or to deal double the damage of the assassin. Although the test procedures included having the pet attack from the front (thus reducing the assassin's evade), this was not enough, and the Hunter damage output was far less than the assassin's. This is especially true when a comparison is made for the bonus damage gained by speccing high in a 2H weapon spec vs. that of speccing in a dual wield type spec:
2H weapon bonus dmg: 10% + (spec x 0.50%)
Dual offhand swing: 25% + (spec x 0.68%)
As you can see, there is no point at which 2H specs can catch up or be more efficient on a point to point basis with Dual Wield. Including poisons and the assassin has both a drastically better defense mechanism along with better damage output.
A tailored solution to address this imbalance would be to conditionally reduce assassin evade rate. Evade currently has no halving penalties unlike Shield (half WeapSkill vs. dual wield) and Parry (half WeapSkill when parrying a 2H weapon with a 1H weapon). One particular solution is to halve evade when attacked by a 2H weapon, which has the dual purpose of evening out Hunter reliability to land damage, in addition to rectifying the case of normal tanks being disproportionately defeated by assassins in the field (due to Dual Wield's feature of halving Shield skill). The tactic of assassin snare-kiting is another discussion.
-----signature-----
- Branin Black'Raven ( feel free to email me at branin@aengvold.com )
- XML database statistics
- http://www.aengvold.com/daoc/xml.php
- Hunter FAQ for 1.62 live (6/11/2003)
- http://vnboards.ign.com/message.asp?topic=51720539
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533N
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Date Posted:
9/10/03 5:03pm
Subject:
RE: Hunter vs. Infiltrator test logs
- Date Edited:
9/10/03 5:09pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
533N
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If you ask me, an archer should always loose to an assasin if spotted, so think this comparison is a bit useless...
Especially because you seem to focus a lot on melee ability, would be more interesting to know how much dam the hunter managed to do with 3 full bow shots.
But that is just me I guess.
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blackhunter20
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Date Posted:
9/10/03 5:17pm
Subject:
RE: Hunter vs. Infiltrator test logs
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That is 100% on the mark. 2 hand weapons, especially spear with it's joke bonuses are clearly the worst weapons in the game. Try some tests with buffs too. You'll see that assassins do twice the damage even when your spear does hit, especially from mercfiltrators. You'll hit for 250-300 every 4-5 seconds, and they'll hit your for 170 main hand, 90 off hand = 230 every 1.5 seconds. Then the poison kicks in and there goes another 70. Also the buffs put them into GOD MODE and half your attacks landing would be a dream, but more like 1/3 to none actually land then.
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Atkus
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Date Posted:
9/10/03 5:19pm
Subject:
RE: Hunter vs. Infiltrator test logs
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"I deliberately chose a test subject who was the worst configured Infiltrator that I could find. Many things have gone wrong for this Infiltrator:"
:P
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Kupa - Mid/Nimue (Harmless Kobe' Savage)  Mo' n00b!!
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blackhunter20
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Date Posted:
9/10/03 5:20pm
Subject:
RE: Hunter vs. Infiltrator test logs
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Well thank God nobody asked you. Why should they win if your spotted? Thats just more stupid assassin thought. So use to being overpowered you don't even remember the intent is for you to rely on your critical strikes for the win. Not evade, evade, evade and dragonfang for the win.
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Cpt.Blood
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Date Posted:
9/10/03 5:23pm
Subject:
RE: Hunter vs. Infiltrator test logs
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Hunters can easily kite someone using their pet and win probably any 1:1 fight when they have the initiaive and know how to play. If there's an archer who needs help at melee it's the scout, not the hunter.
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Branin
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Date Posted:
9/10/03 5:26pm
Subject:
RE: Hunter vs. Infiltrator test logs
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I need to emphasize the test procedure:
All tests were started by the Hunter firing his bow into the Infiltrator three times, simulating a Hunter ambushing an assassin via True Sight.
-----signature-----
- Branin Black'Raven ( feel free to email me at branin@aengvold.com )
- XML database statistics
- http://www.aengvold.com/daoc/xml.php
- Hunter FAQ for 1.62 live (6/11/2003)
- http://vnboards.ign.com/message.asp?topic=51720539
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blackhunter20
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Date Posted:
9/10/03 5:31pm
Subject:
RE: Hunter vs. Infiltrator test logs
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Ok, could the albion scabs making all the noise please go back to their boards. We're trying to get our classes fixed, not listen to more garbage about powering up your overpowered classes.
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Iwanbo
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Date Posted:
9/10/03 5:31pm
Subject:
RE: Hunter vs. Infiltrator test logs
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the thing that throws off a lot of "balance" calls, and nerf cries, is buffs.
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stolen1
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Date Posted:
9/10/03 5:37pm
Subject:
RE: Hunter vs. Infiltrator test logs
- Date Edited:
9/10/03 5:43pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
stolen1
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Did you walk backwords to allow your pet to hit the inf from behind with impunity?
If you did not, these tests are *meaningless*.
"11% thrust (with armor bonus, this is 20% thrust)"
it's 21% thrust actually.
"937 weapSKill (w/ 3 melee relics, this is 1124 WeapSkill) "
it's still 937weapskill. Relics state 20% damage increase, not 20% more weapskill. Weapskill affects the enemies evade/parry/block rates as well as damage.
"29% slash (w/ armor vulnerabilities, this is 22% slash) "
Again, it's 19% slash resist, since armour advantage/disadvantage is 10%
"Dual offhand swing: 25% + (spec x 0.68%)"
This is not the correct DW formula.
It's 25% + (level/4) + ( spec x 0.5)
there was a thread in the rogue forum labeled DW spec.
You also failed to mention armour quality which affects EFFECTIVE AF, which is most important.
"in addition to rectifying the case of normal tanks being disproportionately defeated by assassins in the field (due to Dual Wield's feature of halving Shield skill)."
Now this on is just untrue. The only way an assasin will beat ANY equal RR tank is if he does NOT use active RA's. If you know anything about assasins, know this. In a buffless situation and no RA's an assasin that lands PA will almost be guarenteed a victory againest any tank. However with RA's, specifically IP/AP/Purge, a tank with equal buffage will utterly DESTROY any asassin.
Do more complete tests.
-Lim
Edit- I don't see how you even expected to win. Right off the bat, picking a slash spec'd enemy and thrust resistant gives you -20%hp give or take a few %.
you failed to also mention what type of arrow's you used when you used your bow. Slash?Crush?Thrust?
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Cab_Iseult
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Date Posted:
9/10/03 5:39pm
Subject:
RE: Hunter vs. Infiltrator test logs
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this is great data Branin.
keep posting stuff like this (even negative results) when you get it.
btw, I suggest running the same test with an = RR, =geared assassin, no pet buffs.
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Branin
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Date Posted:
9/10/03 5:49pm
Subject:
RE: Hunter vs. Infiltrator test logs
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Earlier tests this week revealed a bug with the way evade reduction works. Unless you can actually evade the attacker, he doesn't count as an attacker. So having the pet attack from behind is actually worse than having them both attack from front.
Pet dmg: no evades
Hunter dmg: normal evades
vs.
Pet dmg: half evades
Hunter dmg: half evades
Obviously, the Hunter does more dmg than the pet, so you'd lose out half pet dmg (small) and gain more Hunter dmg (big).
On your other points:
1. It appears from the Infiltrator's logs that the end result after armor modifications is still 20% thrust resist once rounding occurs. We've been told by developers that armor mods are independent of the item resists are multiplied out, so the Infiltrator takes .89 x .90 = .801 -> .80 dmg.
2. WeapSkill has a direct 1:1 correlation with damage dealt. This has been confirmed via developers and it is the exact method by which Hunters were given a 6% boost to dmg and how Warriors were given their 4.5% boost to dmg.
3. Like #1, because armor modifications are independent, you multiply 0.71 (items) x 1.10 (armor vuln) to get a rounded figure of 0.78. This is confirmed by the Infiltrator's logs.
4. I don't have space to post the logs for this, but I did do a test to confirm the existence of a level factor in the DW chances. I originally believe level had an influence, but the tests did prove me wrong, level has no statistically determinable effect upon your DW chances, it appears to be entirely based upon your specs. As for the 0.68% constant, this satisfies several characters and logs that we've run, although as high as 0.75% still may be a possibility.
-----signature-----
- Branin Black'Raven ( feel free to email me at branin@aengvold.com )
- XML database statistics
- http://www.aengvold.com/daoc/xml.php
- Hunter FAQ for 1.62 live (6/11/2003)
- http://vnboards.ign.com/message.asp?topic=51720539
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Hikkie
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Date Posted:
9/10/03 5:53pm
Subject:
RE: Hunter vs. Infiltrator test logs
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Lim mythic stated that when the hunter TS the assassin, he should win 90% of the case. Now the pet is at the front so it actually decreases the evade rate of teh assassin, if it isnt at the front it wont effect them.
And about DW formula, I dont really understand that as in waterman(atm mid rvr tl) (which used alot of logs) he points out the formula branin uses. So unless you can point out to logs where they disproof this formula, Im trusting that he has found within reason the correct formula.
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stolen1
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Date Posted:
9/10/03 5:54pm
Subject:
RE: Hunter vs. Infiltrator test logs
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If you want to run more complete test's accomplish this first.
Equal RR.
Respec out of ALL RA's
Use all 100% quality weapons/armour
No proc's on weapons or armours.
Move BACKWORDS while fighting the inf so your pet can attack from the rear and the inf has NO chance of evading it's attacks.
Considering your testing againest albs, if the inf falls below 20% HP, you've basically won already since he's getting 20% more damage againest you using melee items.
Cap out ALL melee resists and Body.
Find a smarter inf.
Then your tests would have more credibility as a complete Inf/Hunter test.
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UriahnPoisonblade
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Date Posted:
9/10/03 6:04pm
Subject:
RE: Hunter vs. Infiltrator test logs
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To me it doesn't make any sense to give evade a penalty towards 2h weapons. With a big slow weapon, I don't see how it would be so hard to see it coming and evade it. However, I do think that evade should have a penalty to multiple targets. It does make sense and would help out hunters quite a bit I'd think with the pet acting as the second attacker. Just my 2c.
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stolen1
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Date Posted:
9/10/03 6:06pm
Subject:
RE: Hunter vs. Infiltrator test logs
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"Earlier tests this week revealed a bug with the way evade reduction works. Unless you can actually evade the attacker, he doesn't count as an attacker. So having the pet attack from behind is actually worse than having them both attack from front."
Please link the tests. I've fought many high RR Hunters and end up losing simply BECAUSE the pet is hitting from behind for 70-100 damage at a constant rate in which I have *no* defence for.
And the pet hitting me from behind does not *seem* to affect my evade rates againest hunters.
"2. WeapSkill has a direct 1:1 correlation with damage dealt. This has been confirmed via developers and it is the exact method by which Hunters were given a 6% boost to dmg and how Warriors were given their 4.5% boost to dmg."
I'm not disputing that. Weapskill DOES affect damage. In which I agreed. It also affects evade/parry/block rates. But RELICS do not add a 20% increase in weapskill. They add 20% DAMAGE to melee attacks.
"3. Like #1, because armor modifications are independent, you multiply 0.71 (items) x 1.10 (armor vuln) to get a rounded figure of 0.78. This is confirmed by the Infiltrator's logs. "
Are you referring this to the quality of armour used?
please rephrase as im having trouble understanding. Quality of said 100af armour affects the amount of damage we take.
EI 100af 100%qua 100%cond provides more effective AF then 100af 89qua 100%conc armour. Thus less damage taken correct?
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